A charging man can cover a great distance

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nathan

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Here s an Uighur muslim charging towards CHinese riot police with machete and was shot miltiple times before he was down.
Very interesting as it shows how a charging man can cover that quick and if we have to draw our concealed weapon if licensed to carry in a similar scenarion such as this , its better to run fast and hope distance will give us safety before we can draw our weapons .


Video is in Chinese language but the action is obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa8Mz-zsSDE
 
nathan:

In Law Enforcement, we (I'm a semi-retired rent-a-cop) use a thing called "the Tueller Distance".

Basically, the idea is that an advancing attacker can cover about 21' before an Officer can draw and fire....

Further tests (can't cite this, sorry) seem to have shown this accurate.

However, IMHO, Tueller was an optomist. More recent testing seems to show that a concealed weapon is going to take considerably longer to present - making the actual distance two or three times Tueller's estimate....

How you'd explain that to an unsympathetic jury, I'm not sure.... :(

In reference to the Chinese, who may be shooting because they can rather than because they have to (or under orders to do so), Open Carry folks, which includes the Chinese riot police, I assume, probably should NOT shoot before the subject gets close to the 21' limit, but it's reasonable to assume, too, that 30 or 40' might be acceptable. Particularly if the local PTB will be thanking you.... :(

Running away may not be much of an advantage - getting started ought to be just as hard/slow as drawing. Move for cover and begin presentation as soon as a threat is obvious.... We are not obliged to sit there (or stand there) and die, as much as the anti's would prefer it, but it's always better to avoid the situation. But sometimes you can't.... That's when the training kicks in....

Regards,
 
Although it may take some time to start backing up, it will at least reduce the closing rate of someone with a knife/fist/tire iron.

There is another great study that showed the reaction times of LEO's responded to someone drawing and firing. I don't remember the exact numbers anymore, but it was something like: it takes a cop 1.25sec to get of a shot when reacting to a threat, but it only takes .5sec for a bad guy to move his gun into position and fire. They timed a lot of the common shooting positions for bad guys (standing with arms at your side, sitting in your car shooting over your shoulder, etc.).
 
There are so many variables to discuss with this, but I firmly agree that the 'tueller drill' distance is very optimistic.

Get some buddies and and try different drills out to see how effectively can or will react. It's good training and fun anyways. :p
 
Basically, the idea is that an advancing attacker can cover about 21' before an Officer can draw and fire....

That is optimistic and is simply before they can fire. As the video shows though, someone determined to attack is not stopped upon the first round hitting them.

Those two in the video covered a lot more ground than 20 feet. You can see them visibly get hit at least a couple times. How many times they were hit and did not visibly react is less certain.
Both went down after taking some hits, and both got back up and tried to resume thier attack before taking more rounds.
If either one of them had started within 20 or even 30 feet they would have inflicted damage with thier weapons.
Instead they were covering what could easily have been 100+ feet.
They were so determined that even taking multiple rounds center mass from a couple feet away would not have stopped them from attacking until thier body collapsed.
The only reason they did not succeed in delivering an attack was they could not cover enough space after taking multiple rounds to get into range.

This should be kept in mind not only for melee weapons, but firearms as well. They could have continued to fire multiple rounds even after being shot. It is not uncommon for there to be more than one loser in a gunfight between two individuals.
Someone fatally wounded still often has several seconds to inflict fatal wounds themselves.
Unlike the old Hollywood Westerns, the guy that delivers the first good hit does not always win or escape taking hits.
A gunfight between two skilled individuals where neither has the drop on the other is likely to result in two losers.
 
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GojuBrian,
While you are at it, try using some tenshin or tai sabaki or body change. Instead of backing straight up, which will always leave you at the disadvantage (you can't run as fast backwards as you can forwards... except for a few freaks I know that do 13 minute two miles backwards...). Try waiting till they are in 5 to 10 ft of you and then step 1-2 steps to the side and pivot so you are still facing them. The movement can get you out of striking distance while leaving you out of their line of momentum which should buy you a little bit of time. As bad as the karate kid movies are.... pat marita does a very good example of this at the very end of #1 (though I would move a bit further out of range for a machete). Think of it like you are stepping in for a iIppon seoi nage but at a 45 degree angle forward and away form the attacker, instead of directly into the attacker.
 
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Anyhow, 7 meters is a horribly short distance for anyone charging. If anyone is a threat before that distance , you might as well have your weapon at the ready and unholstered already.
 
We have run the Tueller drill with real people and fake weapons. While some of us slower people were "shot" before making it to our intended stationary victims with our cardboard "knives," many were quite successful in reaching the victims before the victims could draw. Keep in mind that the intended victims knew they were going to be charged and what the threat was. When the victims did not know they were going to be charged, they always were "killed."

We also found that drawing while retreating increased the potential to get shots on target even against the fastest chargers. Changes of direction helped, but the attacker was able to outstretch the knife arm and cut the intended victim if the victim moved to the side that held the knife. Basically, the cutting swath is pretty wide and you have to avoid all of it, not just the charging person. That swatch is larger if the person has a longer implement or implements in both hands.

Tripping over items on the ground while attempting elude your bladed attacker makes you an easy target.

In short, you can increase your odds for success if you know the attack is coming, but you have only done just that, increased your odds.

This is a really fun and informative drill to try from various distances with red guns, airsoft, etc. and similar simulated knives (need to be flexible).

Aside from the above, we learned that some large people can be surprisingly fast as well, FYI.
 
Try waiting till they are in 5 to 10 ft of you and then step 1-2 steps to the side and pivot so you are still facing them.

My thoughts exactly.... there is a limit to how quickly an attacker can redirect his momentum.

Back in my martial arts days (over 20 years ago now :eek:) I was routinely frustrated by shorter opponents who could move quickly and "get inside", pretty much completely illiminating any advantages I had in reach and strength. And though I practiced quick "shuffle" type movement in any direction from fighting stance, I always found the mental obstical more diffictult to overcome, as it's vert "intuitive" to retreat backwards.

The guys that were really good at it would sense me initiating an attack and then move at a 45 degree angle off the line of attack TOWARDS me, effectively getting out of the way of my strike and closing the distance more rapidly (giving me less time to react to their movement).

The abilit to move quickly and control the distance to an opponent is very formidable....

Unfortunately, I only really know this from the experience of getting my butt kicked by skinny guys half my size :(
 
Try waiting till they are in 5 to 10 ft of you and then step 1-2 steps to the side and pivot so you are still facing them.

It works for an NFL quarterback, but I don't think it will necessarily work for someone of average (or worse) athletic talent.
 
Yep, athletic people have a distinct advantage, whether it's the perp, or you.
 
Yes , a chargeing BG can cover 7+ yards in a blink ---- some "experts" say you should aim for the pelvic area so as to hit the pelvic bone and thus "break down" the body and should crumple{sp?} the chargeing BG.
 
also remember that unless you have a very large house, most rooms aren't 7 metres wide...so an attacker in the same room is already within "actionable distance"

remember that reaction time includes recognizing the threat for what it is...this always gives the attacker the advantage

every demo i've been part of always starts with the "shooter" knowing what is comming and starting their draw after the "cutter" starts running. that already gives the "shooter" a head start and they still lose.

the way to improve your odds, in the real world (at least the way i was taught), is to:
1. realise there is a threat
2. draw, not just put your hand on, the gun before the start of the charge
3. move laterally to the opposite side from the weapon
4. ...not before the attacker has committed to a direction

if you move sideways too soon, he'll just change his direction of attack to compensate

the video was very interesting...the 7.62 FMJ rounds put them down better than i would have thought.
 
some "experts" say you should aim for the pelvic area so as to hit the pelvic bone and thus "break down" the body and should crumple{sp?} the chargeing BG.

Those few experts probably can't cite more than 1 or 2 documented cases of handgun bullets causing a breakdown of the pelvis. It just doesn't happen with any frequency. With rifles, yeah, but not pistols.

We have been through this in several discussions, but the largest part of the pelvis is the ilium (what you feel as your "hip" bone) and you can poke holes through it and break off chunks without causing a locomotor break down. The critical parts to hit are the acetabulum (socket) or head/neck of the femur, but those aren't places you can aim for because you don't know exactly where they are and they are in motion. See post #33 here...http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385357&highlight=fackler+pelvis&page=2 and/or search for "break pelvis" and see some of the threads on the topic.

Any shot to the region will hurt, no doubt, but not necessarily cause any sort of break down. With a pistol, a shot to the pelvic region might be as effective as a shot to the abdomen. Gut shots are, after all, supposedly hugely painful and can cause people to collapse, but then again, they frequently don't.
 
Those guys covered a lot of ground before they went down. Watching the second guy's stride he certainly wasn't even in a full sprint (maybe he had already been hit, I don't know). Beginning to back up immediately would certainly be helpful but I would be prepared to move laterally to get yourself off of the line of attack.

One thing I learned in all my athletic endeavors is that if you are going to move laterally don't cross over your feet, at full speed you will almost certainly stumble if not fall completely. If you are moving right, thrust your right leg out then draw your left leg back to shoulder width and repeat as necessary. This will help you keep your balance, especially if your feet don't listen to your head very well sometimes.
 
the 7.62 FMJ rounds put them down better than i would have thought.
Clearly you feel you know what ammunition the Chinese police forces are using. What is your source for that?


Also interesting to note, in this specific incident in China, the government terminated all internet services to the area, and killed all cell phone service.
All phone service from the province was greatly restricted.
Government censors worked overtime removing all comments of the riots from Chinese websites, blocking access to sites in foreign locations that had such content.


This is a normal process in China to keep various portion of the population who are unhappy with the government from knowing when one faction is acting. Preventing them from, uniting in rebellion, protesting or rebelling at the same time stretching government resources, or gaining support through any uncensored coverage.




On the specific topic of someone charging. Many threats to a civilian are not going to announce themselves from 21+ feet away, hold the weapon above thier heads, and run towards you.
They are often more subtle, and recognizing the threat is much more difficult.
While everyone is speaking of quickly reacting, the thing that makes it difficult in real life is quickly reacting the wrong way has serious consequences. People run and do unexpected things.
A person that noticed you forgot something may dart after you to return it.
A beggar may suddenly run towards someone to ask for money.
Someone may dart out to ask about a vehicle, or other item you possess that interests them.
A man may dart out after a woman who is a total stranger to ask for a phone number in strange places like a night time parking lot.
All total strangers. Yet every one could have just as easily been a threat, and a failure to act until they were in arms reach giving them an advantage.

Additionally the real threats often don't reveal themselves as threats until within almost arm's length away.
I have also seen groups of young men and gang members come out acting friendly, sizing up the victim before they attack.
Even if you know they are trouble, that is an assumption, not a legal justification for taking any hostile action.
How would you justify shooting the group of say teenagers or young men acting macho before an actual threat or hostile act? There is nothing illegal about anyone, even a group of thugs walking up to or even surrounding a person. You can't make the defense in court that you "thought" they were up to no good.
They may proceed to attack, beat, or rob the individual, but until that point absent a verbal threat or visible weapon the threat is an assumption.
Not acting lets them position themselves into a dominating position, where even if you went for a gun they could tackle, grab the arm, or attack as a group including with weapons not yet revealed.
Even pulling out a firearm is assault with a deadly weapon/aggravated assault (depending on state) before lethal force is justified. Both serious violent felonies.



If anyone is a threat before that distance , you might as well have your weapon at the ready and unholstered already.
Unholstering your weapon and having it ready before a threat which justifies lethal force is felony assault.
You may think the group that just stood up and is walking towards you is a threat, but will a court of law agree?
Even if you did something that may have upset them, can you convince a court of law they were not just coming over to talk to you?
The truth is they have every legal right to walk as close as they want to you, before revealing themselves as a threat. At which point they have a decided advantage.
Pulling your firearm out against something that may be a threat, even if it is a man coming towards you in the middle of the night in a dimly lit area with nobody else around, and you think they have no legitimate business acting as they are, is a felony assault.
 
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Back in my martial arts days (over 20 years ago now ) I was routinely frustrated by shorter opponents who could move quickly and "get inside", pretty much completely illiminating any advantages I had in reach and strength. And though I practiced quick "shuffle" type movement in any direction from fighting stance, I always found the mental obstical more diffictult to overcome, as it's vert "intuitive" to retreat backwards.

In AiKiDo, this is fundamental skill at work. Entering their space, even to the point of moving toward them to disrupt their rhythm is something pretty basic.

With a firearm in my hand and an armed aggressor coming at me, the learned japanese fencing footwork and mindset of entering or redirecting their sphere of influence is easily interpreted into a firearm application, no matter the size.

I'm not cheerleading for AiKiDo, but the same techniques that kept guys from being diced by Samurai work for keeping me and you from being bludgeoned or cut by some sucka on the street.

Buying more time, gaining a better position in the room, or forcing the attacker to regather and redirect toward you by using movement should be basic skill for any person who might be involved in any situation like this. And, as quickly as someone can rush a person in a small space, redirection or knowing how to move your own self can buy an extra second needed to draw from cover.
 
Clearly you feel you know what ammunition the Chinese police forces are using. What is your source for that?

th last time i was in the PRC, security officers were still using the chinese copy of the Tokarev TT chambered 7.62x25mm with tactical police units being issued the model 77 chambered in 7.62x17mm.

the PLA was issuing the QSZ-92, but i hadn't heard that it had filtered down to the police level. street level officers, who are usually unarmed, were supposed to be issued the new 9mm revolver.

has this changed?

Unholstering your weapon and having it ready before a threat which justifies lethal force is felony assault.

i guess that would depend on your location and your circumstances.

i wasn't speaking of legalities, only tactical considerations...one should always be aware local laws when they take on the responsibility of arming themselves for self defense.
 
The drill Dennis Tueller developed and showed the officers he was responsible for training has been misunderstood, distorted and outright corrupted over the years.

It continues to be in this thread.



For anyone interested in what the drill actually was intended to illustrate and educate the student to be aware of, clicky the linky.

For Discussion - The Tueller Drill and AOJ(P)
 
Entering their space, even to the point of moving toward them to disrupt their rhythm is something pretty basic.

I have often found that having knowledge of such "basics" and mastering them are two different things.

Little grasshoppers like myself had much knowledge.... training physical actions to the point where they are like reflex responses..... lot's and lot's of work
 
Just some further tueller trivia: it has been documented that a man with a broken leg in a walking cast can do the drill in 2 seconds.

An athletic person can consistantly do it in less than 1.3 (I have, when younger).

It's optimistic.
 
Makes you think about our guys going up against the same back in the Philippine–American War. The result being a change from the 38 long Colt to the 45.

The descriptions given on paper back then match the video today.
 
A friend who used to work armed personal security, explained that when someone is advancing a la Tueller that you should draw your pistol to a center hold retention position then extend your non dominate arm, expecting to use your weapon at contact distances, versus an extended posture like weaver were your weapon is vulnerable.
 
"It works for an NFL quarterback, but I don't think it will necessarily work for someone of average (or worse) athletic talent. "

All it takes is practice. I have had 290 lb 60 yr old men do this to me and even as slow as they were, I couldn't change my momentum. I could see what they were doing... and that only makes you cringe more :)

I worked for several years on it before I ever did it in the sparring ring. I hadn't realized I had done it until I was standing behind my partner and bopping him on his head while holding his other arm in a half nelson. Redirection isn't about athletic ability, it is about understanding how the body moves and learning the dance.
 
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I have often found that having knowledge of such "basics" and mastering them are two different things.

Little grasshoppers like myself had much knowledge.... training physical actions to the point where they are like reflex responses..... lot's and lot's of work

A very good point, and a vital one to people who want to be able to deal with issues like this.

Training isn't about paying your money, learning, then going back home from gunsite or blackwater and looking at your photos while you sit around satisfied that you know something.

It's an every day thing.
 
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