controlling distance... OK City police shooting on bus

[Acera]

Better break down of what happened.

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/07/19/shocking-video-shows-fatal-struggle-officers-gun-ok-city/


Her handgun (probably a G-17) jamming appears to might have saved the officers from getting shot themselves.



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[Jeff White]

This thread is walking right on the line of being on topic here. I can see no situation where an armed private citizen would confront an emotionally disturbed person. The proper response for anyone who does not have a duty to act is to disengage, not to put yourself in the position of the officer.

As for the officer, she never should have drawn her weapon. They should have waited for more officers to arrive and made a plan instead of charging in.

There was a home for the developmentally disabled where I worked. One of the first shifts I worked we answered a call to assist the staff with a resident who was violently out of control. We pulled up and my partner who was (what would have been later a formal FTO but this was before that program became formal) handed me his weapon and said "Lock it in the glove box, put your in there too." I gave him a puzzled look and he added; "there is no one in there you can shoot and you don't want to have to worry about hanging on to it if other residents are involved." This was in 1985, before OC, before tasers, back in the day when less lethal force was usually hand to hand or a nightstick.

But again I reiterate, that there is very little an armed citizen can take from this encounter because an armed citizen should never put him or herself in this situation.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Jeff I would say that weapon control and retention techniques could be observed from the vid in regards to a SD situation for an armed citizen.

As that break down article that Acera linked to noted, when she entered the bus initially her pistol was pointed directly at the driver. Even as an armed citizen in a SD situation muzzle control is important no?

Then there's the whole retention aspect. While none of us would hopefully ever be in a SD situation that close I wouldn't think it unreasonable to prepare for it. Her actions seem to be an example of what not to do in a close quarters SD situation.


Just saying I think there are a couple of things one could take away from the vid for citizen SD purposes.

 

[strambo]

This thread is walking right on the line of being on topic here. I can see no situation where an armed private citizen would confront an emotionally disturbed person. The proper response for anyone who does not have a duty to act is to disengage, not to put yourself in the position of the officer.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, the context of a LE officer dealing with a crazy nutball doesn't fit the average citizen who can just avoid it. However, the substance of the video absolutely applies to everyone!

I don't ever look at any violent video in context. I don't care about the "why" of it. I look at it from the cold perspective of violence; who is doing the violence and who is having it done to them? How can the one successfully using violence be more effective? (Just like a military AAR, no emotion.)

This video should be a wake up call to all the gun owners who think the simple act of having/pointing a gun at someone will make the bad person go away (maybe yes, maybe not!). This shows just how fast things can go south and how having a gun might not mean jack.

Forget context. If you opened your front door to a home intruder, even with a drawn gun, it could go down just like this. Round the street corner, boom, it's on (where is the citizen's partner?). Better to realize this and prepare, then keep practicing 2 hand stance, double taps, at 5-7 yds, standing flat footed ad-nausea...

Need to be able to shoot from retention (and seamlessly be able to flow from extended to retention), shoot while moving, strike effectively-before and after drawing etc.

 

[grampajack]

Am I the only one who thinks she came within less than a foot of shooting the driver in the butt? It think that's the real takeaway here is that when you lose control of your weapon during a struggle, rounds fly and innocent people all too often get caught in the crossfire. What saved her is that his grip on the slide stopped it from cycling, thereby taking it out of the fight. Had that not occurred, she might very well be dead, and possibly her partner as well, not to mention the fact that the bus driver would have been caught in the middle of a gunfight in very close quarters with nowhere to hide.

And again, let's not forget that this entire situation was 110% preventable. If we as permit holders can learn only one thing from this it's that trying to be a badass gets people killed.

 

[Predator55]

Scaatylobo is right on the button.

Old lady new shooter, never said woman weren't/aren't mentally tough. But they have no business on the street.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I find it useful to watch videos of terrorist attacks in Israel because you can learn a lot by seeing what happens in real life. The first important thing I learned was that the bad guy can get up again after being shot. But on the topic of female vs male violent encounters, another thing I learned was that a normal-sized female cannot effectively frontally stab a non-elderly normal-sized male, he will just brush her arm away.

Also on this topic, recently a female fighter (whatever kind of fighting you call what Ronda Rousey does, I think this was the one who unseated Rousey) faced a transgender in a bout. She was interviewed afterwards and said she was no match for the transgender who delivered much more power than any female she had ever fought, adding that she herself is an "abnormally strong woman". And this was a case where they were both around the same weight.

 

[scaatylobo]

@ Predator 55

Thank you for being a realist .

Not many left in the world as most people are too busy TELLING YOU what they 'think' and not know !.

My not so humble opinion [ after 22 years teaching that stuff ].

 

[grampajack]

For me it's not even a matter of physical force. I'm a relatively small guy at 5,8 and I know there are plenty of people out there who can take me. Yet there are plenty of cops my size and much smaller. Even if you're 6,2 that's no guarantee that you can take anyone, much less everyone. That's why cops carry batons, pepper spray, and tasers. And it's why cops don't try to wrestle with anyone alone if they don't have to.

The problem as I see it is with the temperamental differences between men and women. Psychologically, women just aren't cut out for being cops and soldiers in the same way that men are. I'm not saying that women can't make good cops and soldiers; it's just that very few women have the desire. The ones who do seem to have a complex. I've never met a female cop who didn't have the same personality. To put it simply, they walk around with a big ass chip on their shoulder all the time, and that's a sure recipe for disaster in that profession.

 

[Jeff White]

Ok folks. I think we've drifted far enough off topic. Not that some of these issues aren't worth talking about, they clearly are. But the Strategies, Tactics and Training Forum isn't the place to discuss them.

THR isn't the place to discuss gender assignment policies in LE or the military.

This one is closed.


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