controlling distance... OK City police shooting on bus

[SSN Vet]

This video highlights, imo, a couple tactical blunders...

Once identifying the problem guy wigging out on the bus (who appears to be running for his life) The female officer draws her weapon and assumes a combat stance very quickly. But then she blunders big time...

1. She comes up the bus steps (putting herself at a disadvantageous angle) and closes distance before she is apparently ready to engage the BG.

2. This is practically an invitation for the BG to grab her gun, at which point, she as ~1 sec. to fire, but she hesitates and winds up in a wrestling match.

3. Now her partner has to run in and save the day by plugging the guy at point blank range.

I hate to play armchair quarterback, but the BG is unarmed and it sure looks like wonder woman turned this into a fatal shoot by charging up the bus steps right into the guys reach.

Tactical point.... controlling distance is a very important facet of an engagement.

The bus driver appears to have remained calm, cool and collected during the entire affair, and judging by the size difference, was never under any real threat from a skinny guy with a small fire extinguisher.

 

[SSN Vet]

After watching this several times, it certainly appears that the female officer blundered into the bus, invited the gun grab, and then was shy about pulling the trigger.

I feel bad for her partner, who had to run in to rescue her from her folly and is now going to be forever labelled for "shooting an unarmed person of color".

:banghead:

 

[Acera]

If you need to raise your blood pressure this morning, read the comments on the news articles written about this. Another example of how far the divide between segments of our population really is.





.

 

[ilbob]

After watching this several times, it certainly appears that the female officer blundered onto the bus, invited the gun grab, and then was shy about pulling the trigger.

I feel bad for her partner, who had to run in to rescue her from her folly and is now going to be forever labelled for "shooting an unarmed person of color".

:banghead:

given there was no immediate danger to anyone one would think there is no hurry to do anything at all.

 

[Predator55]

She should not of run on the bus like GI Jane, what a foolish rookie mistake. Secondly, gun retention tactics weren't even tried, hers were screaming for her partner who had the unfortunate duty of taking the guy out. I have said this time and time again, and I know I'll get push back but, 99.9 percent of woman have no business being police officers on the street, if they want to sit at a desk that's one thing. They do not have the mental or physical strength to be on the street. As mentioned, I feel sorry for her partner who now has to live with her mistake.

 

[ilbob]

She should not of run on the bus like GI Jane, what a foolish rookie mistake. Secondly, gun retention tactics weren't even tried, hers were screaming for her partner who had the unfortunate duty of taking the guy out. I have said this time and time again, and I know I'll get push back but, 99.9 percent of woman have no business being police officers on the street, if they want to sit at a desk that's one thing. They do not have the mental or physical strength to be on the street. As mentioned, I feel sorry for her partner who now has to live with her mistake.

this could just as easily been a male officer. sticking your gun out like that where it can get grabbed is a big problem. you can be the strongest guy in the world but if you basically poke at someone with your gun there is at least some chance that someone is going to grab on to it.

 

[pbearperry]

I was a Cop for 32 years and i thought the same thing when I saw the video. She should have kept the firearm holstered and waited for backup.i truly feel she should really think about a different line of work.

 

[lemaymiami]

In my career, I made my share of mistakes (and I'd seriously question anyone that claims otherwise...). That said, any competent outfit goes to great pains to examine critical incidents to see where training, maybe discipline, and a variety of other factors might be improved on. The incidents you survive teach you or your future isn't going to be very good...

As I've said on more than one occasion - tactics are more important than weapons, other gear, or even numbers. Tactics are everything and should be an on-going learning process... for anyone, law enforcement, armed citizen, ... anyone can and should learn if they're going to be in the line of fire...

Since most police departments are very careful to keep in-house matters away from the public we'll never know what if any outcome happened after the incident....

 

[SSN Vet]

It sure looked like the bus driver was handling the situation just fine.

One foot print in the back and the BG would have been ejected from the bus. But then he would have lost his job and been charged and sued.

So instead, he stands aside and lets the pros blunder in and off the guy.

 

[Predator55]

Ilbob, no doubt it could have been a man, however drawing a weapon in that circumstance was a bit premature. She had a partner with her and two against one is better than one woman by herself. Yes the BG had a fire extingisuher but I did not see any move towards the cop. She charge in the bus and put her pistol in play for the BG, who was obviously not right in the head. She screwed up big and her partner is going to pay the price. I would rather have a malinois or German Shepard as a partner then a female.

 

[ilbob]

Ilbob, no doubt it could have been a man, however drawing a weapon in that circumstance was a bit premature. She had a partner with her and two against one is better than one woman by herself. Yes the BG had a fire extingisuher but I did not see any move towards the cop. She charge in the bus and put her pistol in play for the BG, who was obviously not right in the head. She screwed up big and her partner is going to pay the price. I would rather have a malinois or German Shepard as a partner then a female.

I am a big fan of cops not rushing in when there is no immediate danger to anyone. Give people a chance to calm down. Even if it takes a few minutes, or a few hours. It is not like they have anything more pressing to do.

 

[grampajack]

She screwed up. Their job is to deescalate things, and she took that situation from a 3 to a 10 before even assessing what was going on. The guy didn't have a weapon, he wasn't threatening anyone, and he hadn't tried to hurt anyone. To me it looked like he was just high on something, probably bath salts, and wigging out.

I also doubt he really intended to take her gun. When someone gets inside your bubble with a gun it's your natural instinct to try to grab it. It's involuntary. Not only should she have not had her pistol drawn at that point, but if she was going to draw it then you certainly don't get up close and personal like that. You tell them to get down, and if they don't do it then you have to decide if you're going to shoot them or put the gun away and try to wrestle with them. Considering that she had backup right there that was a choice she didn't even have to make in the first place. She forced that whole situation, plain and simple.

As for the partner, he did what he had to do. And that's unfortunate. Not only did her recklessness get a guy killed who might have otherwise gone peacefully and slept it off, but now her partner has to live with the fact that he killed someone. Now he gets to see that guy's brains all over the floor every time he closes his eyes. And that's not even mentioning the fact that he's going to be placed on administrative leave, have to go to the department's shrink, and possibly even get prosecuted or sued by the family. At the very least, he's going to be the focus of an investigation.

The unfortunate thing, and this isn't politically correct, but I've seen this happen before with female cops. I don't want to stereotype, but most of them are always going around with a chip on their shoulder like they have something to prove. And more often than not, they rush in like some kind of commando and stuff like this happens. She thought she was a major badass who didn't need her partner's help or input, or even to coordinate with him, and this is the end result. Not only is she reckless, but she's not a team player.

 

[Sam1911]

I do not see any reason to characterize this as a problem with female officers. It's a training issue, purely. Women can be trained as well as (and often better than) men. A big hulking man stepping into that scenario and counting on his physical size to overpower the deranged individual would be wrong, too. MANY men have made that same mistake.

Unfortunately, training is hard, expensive, time consuming, and (really the critical factor) it doesn't always get ingrained -- doesn't really "click" -- until a real-world crisis event drives the crucial point home.

Now this lady and her partner get to be the subject of a video that will be shown to thousands more police trainees, I'm sure, of a poor decision that lead to a more more violent end than it probably had to.

...

Time was, officers got some training (maybe) and then learned on the job as best as they could. With no video available and no widely accepted public narrative of how they were oppressing anyone, as long as they lived through their encounters they were doing ok. By 5 or 10 years or so into a career they were probably pretty good at their jobs and maybe would be able to apply a bit of strategy to a situation like this and avoid having to shoot anyone. If not, well, hey a crazy dude tried to grab an officer's gun and got killed. End of story. Details beyond that might be discussed among fellow officers, but that's as far as it would go.

Now we require that police be far better than that and mistakes, over-steps, decisions that turn out to be bad ones, and even actions that are CORRECT, but which look harsh or take some understanding to evaluate are all in the spotlight, for every citizen, political aspirant, community organizer, and anyone else with an axe to grind to comment on and critique -- mostly at very loud volume, and mostly as a means to excite like-minded supporters who are open to a certain message.

Part of that is good. It is FAR harder these days for any law officer to act like a law unto his/her-self, extort, bully, harass, or otherwise act unjustly to the citizens. It is the age of accountability.

Part of that is bad. Facing not just the threat of lethal violence on a daily basis, but the knowledge that if you have a brain fart or a bad day -- or even if you do your best but things take a bad turn -- you're going to be nationally known and reviled for your mis-steps, as well as probably facing demands for your firing... well, all that for a $50K salary? Not me.

...

But yeah, that sure looks like a blunder and now she and her partner have to live with it.

 

[SSN Vet]

all that for a $50K salary? Not me.

Then take states like Maine that offer a starting salary for a state police officer of $36K and it's no wonder that they can't fill their slots for the next academy class. (finding people who have negligible experience with drug use and can pass a polygraph test makes it even more difficult)

Perhaps our political masters (Gov. of MN and Baltimore AG come to mind) need to experience a "sick out" with their security detail the next time they shoot their mouths off currying favor with the BLM crowd.

 

[MEHavey]

5-6 shots directly to the face/head from no more than 1-ft away.... ouch.

Then again...

"Police say 42-year-old Miguel Angel Chavez-Angles hijacked a car
on June 24 then locked himself inside an auto repair shop before
boarding the bus."

"It actually originated at NW 11 and Walker, that's where we received
a call of a vandalism,” Balderrama said. A Hispanic male was seen
near a car with a broken window; there were multiple callers who
called in and told us that this was going on.”

Balderrama said the man ran from the scene, got into to a car and
commanded the person driving to “drive off.” He said the driver bailed
from the vehicle, seeking help after spotting an officer behind Chase Bank,
2200 N Western Ave.

“The suspect then got out of the vehicle and started running westbound.
At some point he got into a metro transit bus, (and) an officer went
inside the bus. At this point we believe that he was armed with a knife,”

Video released Monday by the Oklahoma City Police Department
shows Chavez grabbing for Officer Heather Lane's gun, then wrestling
her to the floor of the bus."
http://www.koco.com/news/court-docu...bus-shooting-called-police-the-devil/40783806

No, a gun (might) never have had to come from the start. But as pointed out in the posts above, it is the comments from the ex-post-facto/arm-chair/all-the-time-in-the-world quarterbacks that really reveal a populace somewhat divorced from reality.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Bob at bearingarms said her big mistake was leading with her gun.

 

[old lady new shooter]

this could just as easily been a male officer. sticking your gun out like that where it can get grabbed is a big problem. you can be the strongest guy in the world but if you basically poke at someone with your gun there is at least some chance that someone is going to grab on to it.

A few days ago there was a case where a guy tried to rob a convenience store using a shotgun... the clerk, at whom the shotgun was being pointed at very close range, grabbed it away from the BG. (!)

 

[old lady new shooter]

She should not of run on the bus like GI Jane, what a foolish rookie mistake. Secondly, gun retention tactics weren't even tried, hers were screaming for her partner who had the unfortunate duty of taking the guy out. I have said this time and time again, and I know I'll get push back but, 99.9 percent of woman have no business being police officers on the street, if they want to sit at a desk that's one thing. They do not have the mental or physical strength to be on the street. As mentioned, I feel sorry for her partner who now has to live with her mistake.

I agree that few women have the physical strength to be on the street but mental strength doesn't depend on size.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Mere ownership of a set of gonads doesn't necessarily ensure the holder has been blessed with above average policing ability.

Culturally speaking, most boys have been in a few more fist fights than girls, so a boy's OODA loop may be able to reset faster in a rapidly evolving situation because he's got more experience.

Experience and mindset make the difference, not testicles.

Ultimately, the star of the video escalated the situation, terminally.

He took over a public bus and armed himself with a fire extinguisher.

Neither race nor gender is an issue here.

The first officer was only mentally prepared to use the threat of force, and the criminal was desperate. The officer's naivety doesn't discount the criminal's actions.

 

[MedWheeler]

There were indeed a lot of tactical errors here, including the one on which we are focused.

However, there once was a time when it didn't matter if a cop's gun was drawn on you prematurely. It was both illegal and pure suicidal folly to grab at it, and even most of the hardest-core criminals knew that. It's a shame that, in today's society, neither seems to still be true.

This guy is dead, and the police are responsible now, not him.

 

[Sam1911]

However, there once was a time when it didn't matter if a cop's gun was drawn on you prematurely. It was both illegal and pure suicidal folly to grab at it, and even most of the hardest-core criminals knew that. It's a shame that, in today's society, neither seems to still be true.

This guy is dead, and the police are responsible now, not him.

It's hard to say what a mentally disturbed individual knows, understands, or is in control of. It IS illegal, and IS pure suicidal folly to grab a cop's weapon. I don't think today's society has changed that, much. Hardest-core criminals know that to be true, still, but this sad, disturbed man may have had very little conscious choice left in his misfiring brain.

Killing someone who you can find lawful justification for shooting is probably the safer, easier route in a lot of cases. But many cops who comment on these things say they are faced with many opportunities a year where lethal force could be justified, but where they go out of their way not to have to use it. Even putting themselves at considerably more risk to keep from shooting someone if it isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary.

NOT having to kill someone is a good thing, and something society rightly is working on.

If an officer makes a tactical choice (or responds instinctively) in a way that walks someone else down the path to being shot, and that situation could have been handled in a more restrained, less confrontational way such that nobody had to die, all should learn from that.

 

[grampajack]

A few days ago there was a case where a guy tried to rob a convenience store using a shotgun... the clerk, at whom the shotgun was being pointed at very close range, grabbed it away from the BG. (!)

It's an involuntary reaction. If someone gets in your bubble with a gun, you will grab it. It's like if you have a spider on you; you involuntarily brush it away, and in my case probably do a little dance in the process. The bottom line, if you don't want someone to grab your gun, don't get in their bubble with it. If you do, 9 times out of 10 they'll grab it without thinking, then a situation that could have potentially been been deescalated will almost certainly turn into a life and death struggle.

She should have known that, and I'm sure she did. But she was going to be the hero, and no one was going to tell her otherwise. Personally, I'm more concerned about her partner than the bad guy. I'm not thrilled that he's dead, but he certainly had it coming after what he did. But no one wants to shoot anyone, especially up close and personal like that. It makes me angry that she put him in that situation. He's the real victim here, and the perpetrator is the politically correct insanity that lets people like her do that kind of job.

 

[scaatylobo]

Flame on = at me if you like,but

I was a LEO for 26 years and for 22 years I taught HANDS ON defensive tactics at the police academy.

I NEVER SAW a woman that was a match for any man = even a poor example of a tough guy.

You can argue all you like,we had plenty of women make it through the class.

BUT all the instructors knew we could take any of them out way to easily.

NOT SO for many of the men,yes not all could take an instructor out.

BUT at least they could give us a fight.

FACT = women are the weaker sex [ upper body strength and punching ability ].

You have not,and will not see a MMA match with mixed sexes,unless its a drag queen & a female fighter.

That LEO was WRONG to try and take on that crazed man ,and drawing her gun put her backup in a position of needing to use DPF [ deadly physical force ].

Flame away all you like,I stick to my opinion.

 

[Browning]

It's an involuntary reaction. If someone gets in your bubble with a gun, you will grab it. It's like if you have a spider on you; you involuntarily brush it away, and in my case probably do a little dance in the process. The bottom line, if you don't want someone to grab your gun, don't get in their bubble with it. If you do, 9 times out of 10 they'll grab it without thinking, then a situation that could have potentially been been deescalated will almost certainly turn into a life and death struggle.

She should have known that, and I'm sure she did. But she was going to be the hero, and no one was going to tell her otherwise. Personally, I'm more concerned about her partner than the bad guy. I'm not thrilled that he's dead, but he certainly had it coming after what he did. But no one wants to shoot anyone, especially up close and personal like that. It makes me angry that she put him in that situation. He's the real victim here, and the perpetrator is the politically correct insanity that lets people like her do that kind of job.

^This^

I've had guns pulled on me several times and in two of those cases I've grabbed the gun and gotten a disarm. Knowing that it's a projectile weapon it's an almost involuntary reflex to grab the barrel or the slide and barrel and move the gun off its line of trajectory and to then try to gain control of it so that A) It doesn't happen again...and B) So that the guy (or gal) doesn't shoot you because either they fear getting shot with their own weapon or because their ego is about to suffer a blow because you just took their gun away from them.

The two times I've had the police point guns at me (one was where they mistook my car for someone they were looking for, they told me after that it was the wrong year Camaro and the other was after a fight with these gangbangers when I was a teenager in California and the police were short on information) they stayed well away from us until they went to cuff us and by that point we were face down on the ground.

I took an escrima class about 10 years ago where we practiced disarming techniques and all it takes is a second in some instances. They cover that in the academy, so she would have received training on retention which is probably why she was at least able to avoid him gaining control of it completely. I'm just guessing she forgot all that in the excitement and rushed right into him thinking he'd immediately comply. Big surprise, some people fight anyway.

 

[SSN Vet]

Culturally speaking, most boys have been in a few more fist fights than girls, so a boy's OODA loop may be able to reset faster in a rapidly evolving situation because he's got more experience.

I agree that this used to be true... not so sure anymore.

In the burbs where my kids go to school, I'll wager that 8 out of 10 young men graduate without ever being in a fight.

In the hood, I'll wager the girls fight as much these days as the boys.


Piggy backing on Scaatylobo's comment....

I was really into martial arts back in my 20s and spent hours in the dojo every day and competed frequently. With only one exception (a female prison guard who also had a black belt in judo) none of the female black belts could hold their own against a healthy male specimen, regardless of the guys ability level. They just couldn't hit hard enough with their skinny wrists and legs. Their not-so-secret secret-weapon was, of course, a groin kick... and they did well to master it. But not every guy is dumb enough to walk into that one.