A cheap Dangerous Game Rifle

[RemingtonMan]

Two years ago I was deciding on what rifle to use on my upcomming Brown Bear hunt, so I went to my local gander mountain to check out what dangerous game rifles they had in stock. They had plenty 300 win mag, 338 win mag, 340 weatherby mag, and even a nice CZ model 550in 458 win mag. But the problem was and is that I am cheap. Being a lawyer has made this way and the fact that I started my life in poverty has made my purse strings tight. However, on the way out of the store I saw a rack of used surplus rifles and I stoped by to take a look. Among the rifles were a No.4 MK.I British Enfield made in Long Branch, outside of Ontario, Canada. The rifle was extreamly clean and was made back in 1949, and the price was right $325.00. So I went home with it, and started to do some reasearch on the rifle, what convinced me was some old pictures of british soldiers in Africa and India with dead game like Lion, Cape Buffalo, Elephant. I thought to myself how can this be a round as under powered as the .303 British taking game as deadly as Cape Buffalo, and Lion- Then my brain started to work.

The .303 British was originally created as a black powder carterage, just like the 45-70 Gov't. How can the 45-70 be used to take Brown Bear as it has for years.

Here is the formula:

I loaded a 215gr. woodleigh PP with RL15 ( I will not say how much because I do not want any one to get hurt) which generated around 2200 FPS.

215 X 2200 FPS = 473000/1000 which gives a Power Factor of 473

The 45-70, breaks down like this

300gr. X 1800 FPS = Power Factor of 540.

It breaks down to this, a big slow moving bullet creates a huge wound channel, therfor makes it fine for dangerous game.

Now think for a minute:
A No.4 MK.I British Enfield has something special!!! It has a 10 Round Magazine. Now a Brown Bear at 150 Yards, 100 Yards, 50 Yards, 25 Yards- and your telling me that I can have 10 rounds of 215gr. bullets going between 2200 and 1880 FPS tearing huge wound channels into a Brown Bear with a Power Factor of 473, now that is stoping power.

yes, I put it to the test. At 123 yds and 2-Shot later I took a 823 pound Brown Bear. My test proved to be true. But please do not take my word for it, try it for yourself. It would also be great for Moose, and Elk, which I plan on doing this year with my cheap dangerous game rifle.

P.S., Excuse my grammer, I do not care about my writing skills when I am on a online forum.

 

[JShirley]

Welcome to THR.

This could appropriately be placed in rifles or hunting. I have moved the thread, and given a redirect from general.

I'm not arguing that a heavy .311 bullet can't be used for North American game, but your reasoning on why it's appropriate is a bit flawed. Let me illustrate: game as large as elephant has frequently been poached in the last 30 years with AK-pattern rifles. Is the 7.62x39mm a good, or even decent choice for any dangerous game over 200 lbs? No.

Just because someone, or even sometimes, many people have done something, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

the price was right $325.00

Hm. Well, maybe prices are higher where you are. $325 two years ago would have been high here.

Anyway, that sounds like a fine brownie. Let's see the pics.

John

 

[Uncle Mike]

Oh come on now... many over the years have used the .303 to harvest a tusker...they have used the .30-06 to dispatch lion and bear... if the gentleman would like to use the .303 for bar then that is his prerogative... but before you leave for that bear hunt... can I have your Enfield... if that bear doesn't knaw on it too bad? hehehe

There is nothing wrong with bear hunting with a .303, 30-06, ect.. if you can do your part under pressure. If you shoot like me, then you might want to take something with a bit more authority.

 

[saturno_v]

Remingtonman


I'm pretty sure that the 303 British was not commonly used in Africa for Cape Buffalo, Rhino or Elephant...maybe in some very rare occasions...it is way way too light for that....yes yes, Bell killed countless Elephants with his 275 Rigby but..you get my point....

Lion is a different story....thin skinned max 500 pounds...and the 303 has been indeed used very effectively on lions despite the idiotic laws in some countries nowdays tell you that you need a minimum of a .375 H&H against Simba...talking about overkill....for many people living in the black continent the glorious Enfield was and still is the lion medicine of choice for defense.

The 303 is probably more appropriate for lions rather than brown bears which are usually larger and tougher..

Said that, in Alaska even the 30-30 with appropriate loads has been used for defense against grizzlies....very short range...

So the old 303 British may not be the perfect ideal against a big brownie but you are not terribly underpowered either....many grizzlies have been taken in Canada with it...a 30-06 gives you significantly more power...even regular commercial 06 loads with 220 gr. will reach 2400-2500 fps, well over 200 fps more than your 215 gr.

After all is all about shot placement and the right bullet for the job...

And if you are cheap....you can pick up a Weatherby Vanguard in 338 Winchester Magnum, brand new, for $399...an excellent rifle at an incredible rifle....and the 338 has power to spare against Yogi...way more than you really need...

P.S.

Your wound channel theory doesn't make much sense...slower or faster a bullet of a given shape and caliber will generate the same wound channel....there would be difference if the velocity would affect the rate of expansion in expanding bullets...in that case, a faster bullet, expanding more, will generate a wider wound channel....

 

[saturno_v]

By the way

Congratulation for your big bear...this will confuse some THR users....a 303 power class cartridge is not supposed to kill a grizzly accordingly with them..your bullets should have bounced off innocently....grizzly nowdays are armor plated

 

[.38 Special]

I was not aware that there was much question about whether .30 caliber cartridges are appropriate hunting large game animals, when everything goes right. The question, IMO, is whether they are appropriate when things go wrong.

I am not a gambling man by nature, so would not use them. What others choose is not my business.

 

[saturno_v]

I was not aware that there was much question about whether .30 caliber cartridges are appropriate hunting large game animals, when everything goes right. The question, IMO, is whether they are appropriate when things go wrong.

I am not a gambling man by nature, so would not use them. What others choose is not my business.

The caliber diameter per se in abstract, up to a point, doesn't matter much agaist a "reasonable" sized large and dangerous animal (we are not talking about Buffalo, Rhino or Elephant)

I do not think anybody dispute that a 300 Win Mag is a better choice than a 44 Mag carbine against a bear....or that a 375 H&H is even better than a 45-70

What it counts is energy, sectional density, bullet construction and above anything else....yes you guessed right, shot placement

If things go wrong, the caliber is the last of your problems....

 

[CarolinaCrazy]

I am a Deputy Sheriff and the one thing that we know is that when it comes to man stopping power we like to use sub-sonic heavy bullets, not super-sonic high velocity crap. If a big bullet goes in more blood will come out, and this guy's .303 has 10 shots, in my book that sounds like a lot of blood is comming out. And by the way what about the men 150 or more years ago that used black powder rifles to kill brown bear, are you attempting to tell me that they were more powerfull than a .303, I don't think so. The problem is that all of these belted magnums have gone to peoples heads, and they have lost their common sense. Be careful not to fall for the firearm industries sales objectives and forget the rifles of the past.

 

[Onmilo]

I'm thinking cheap should not be used in conjunction with dangerous game in the same sentence.

If you have the money to shell out for a genuine dangerous game hunt, you certainly have the money for a good quality hunting rifle made for the task at hand.

In my opinion, the minimum dangerous game caliber would be .300 Winchester Magnum with .338 Magnum and up recommended.

 

[CarolinaCrazy]

By the way it did work the guy dropped the bear in two shots. And I tend to believe the guy, becuause who in their right mind would make that story up.

 

[jpwilly]

Congrats on the Big Brown Bear. Sounds like a big fella. Also, for manning up and doing what you believed in. You knew you would catch some flak here for the choice you made. But you made proper use of the rifle with a good bullet combo that ended in a successful hunt and, to top it off, you had the nuts and berries to do it.

 

[RemingtonMan]

I tried to upload a picture of my brownie, but I am having difficulties. Does anyone know how to upload a picture on this forum.

 

[Uncle Mike]

The problem is that all of these belted magnums have gone to peoples heads, and they have lost their common sense. Be careful not to fall for the firearm industries sales objectives and forget the rifles of the past.

I vote CarolinaCrazy for president.

This is what we have been preaching for a while now, we here at the shop see it often, a customer comes in with last years purchase and a sob story about how the caliber of his choice was not adequate enough, "hit that thing 3 times and it still got away".

"I need to get one of those super magnums"... sure thing buddy... and uhhh, I'll give you X dollars for that turd you have there!..... sold... another fine rifle for the collection.

 

[Dr. Fresh]

You can be cheap and get a good big-bore rifle at the same time. Get a Buffalo Classic.

 

[CarolinaCrazy]

Please do not be mad just because you do not have the money to go on a brown bear hunt, or try something like use a .303 on dangerous game.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Where are you hunting?

 

[Wheeler44]

When I was 13 I was given an old .303....I lived in big bear country..In fact the US.gov made my old home a bear preserve.

The old man gave me one box of 215 grain ammo and told me to use it just for bear ( if attacked out fishin' or berry pickin').

Anyone that doesn't think that 215 grains outta an old .303 isn't enough doesn't understand the question....

The old man explained it like this....Bullet construction....bullet velocity.....BULLET PLACEMENT.........That's what makes bears dead...

And trust me... he knew what he was talkin about....

Last week I was home visiting... The (bear) guide that works the area was just finishing up the spring season......I heard someone ask which of his rifles would be best for a bear hunt.

The guide replied " which ever one you can hit with"

Wheeler44

 

[JShirley]

I am a Deputy Sheriff and the one thing that we know is that when it comes to man stopping power we like to use sub-sonic heavy bullets

Yeah, the 158-grain lead round nose .38 was known to be especially effective, compared with something like a much faster 125-grain JHP. Wait, no it wasn't. Not at all. In fact, I would love for you to share with us any proof that

sub-sonic heavy bullets

are automatically more effective than faster rounds.

Oh, wait- you didn't say heavy, slow bullets were better for stopping human threats, did you? You just said "we like to use (them)".

Okay...I've been an infantryman, and one thing I know is that when it comes to "man stopping power" expanding bullets tend to work better than ones that do not expand. Slow, heavy-for-caliber bullets have traditionally had problems expanding.

 

[C-grunt]

I am a Deputy Sheriff and the one thing that we know is that when it comes to man stopping power we like to use sub-sonic heavy bullets, not super-sonic high velocity crap.

Yeah because the .357 mag and the mid weight .40 SW have a horrible man stopping reputation. I myself am a fan of the heavier for caliber pistol rounds but dont consider the lightweight high velocity crap, hell many of them work wonderfully.

But as far as the hunting story goes.... a 215 grn .30 cal round probably has some really good penetration capabilities. It definitely wouldnt be my choice for a big bear, but if you got good penetration and shot placement thats about all you need to bring it down.

 

[CarolinaCrazy]

I know that most of you guys are velocity junkies, but consider this.
The Winchester Ranger Ammunition in .45ACP with a 230gr bullet will do mor damage than a .45ACP with a 185gr. +p. Even in a 9mm, 147gr. work better than 110 gr. +p. Before you question my information, think first.

 

[woof]

I'd look at it this way: If you had to defend yourself against a bear a .338 mag might only give you a 3 or 4 percent better chance of survival than a .303. If 3 or 4 percent on your life is worth less than the $500 difference in the two rifles then by all means go with the .303.

 

[ArmedBear]

I do not care about my writing skills when I am on a online forum.

FYI when someone posts this, I immediately stop reading. It's a PITA to wade through some posts because of how they're written. Most of us are patient, though.

When the poster proclaims that he doesn't care about making his stuff readable, then I don't care to read it.

The fact that it's online doesn't change that.

So, not having read your post all the way through, I'd say that someone who wants to go really cheap on a rifle to use against dangerous game deserves whatever happens to him when the round fails to work (.303), or the action doesn't feed right when used under stress (push-feed).

However, "dangerous game rifle" has a certain meaning in firearms parlance: it means a "stopper" used on dangerous game that is or might be attacking the hunter. It doesn't mean a round used for plugging something at 100+ yards that could be dangerous.

 

[jpwilly]

You know a good bear rifle (if legal to hunt with) could be your Granddaddy's M1 Garand. Slip a Schuster gas plug in and adjust for a heavy dangerous game load at the range. 8 quick shots of 30-06 on tap!

 

[skoro]

Rem:

I tried to upload a picture of my brownie, but I am having difficulties. Does anyone know how to upload a picture on this forum.

Just copy the address of the photo you want to upload (right click and then click on "copy"). When you click on the "Post Reply" button this forum, you'll see the photo icon on the second row of the toolbar, 5th from the right. Click on the icon, then right click in the space provided in the op-up and click on "paste".

Works pretty well.



Is this your Enfield?

 

[Robert]

skoro,
That is a No1 MkIII.

.303 has killed more game in Africa than any other round. It has also wounded more. Wish I knew where I read/ heard that. Something to keep in mind.