A cheap Dangerous Game Rifle

[ArmedBear]

.303 has killed more game in Africa than any other round. It has also wounded more. Wish I knew where I read/ heard that. Something to keep in mind.

AFAIK said woundings are the reason for legal caliber minimums in Africa.

Bwana plugs a tiger and wounds it. He and his guide can't find it, so they hop in the Land Rover and go shoot another one.

Tiger doesn't die, but recovers from the wound. A bit slower and less agile than he was before being shot, he starts eating people in villages instead of more difficult four-legged plains game.

Is it ethical for someone who can afford a good rifle to hunt with the cheapest thing he can get, regardless of effectiveness?

 

[saturno_v]

ArmedBear

A 303 with the right load is sufficient to stop in a charge a Lion, a Tiger or a bear if you know what to do...if you don't know what to do a 470 NE will not help much.

In a charge situation there are so many variables in play and all bets are off..and the firearm caliber (unless we are talking 22 LR or 223) is almost irrelevant...

A 303 at short distance, again, with the right load, is capable to get to the CNS of these animals from any angle, the only real stop guarantee in a charge.

It is a fact that many people choose to ignore.

Do you have any precise statistics that report that a 303 left more wounded game (we are not talking about Rhino or Elephant) than a 375 H&H??? I think no, it is your assumption.

Actually the 303 probably did left more wounded game simply because, especially in the past, there was much more hunting going on in Africa and Asia, and done by people without necessarily an army of professional guides to back them up..

It is a number game...caliber has nothing to do with it...

Bwana plugs a tiger

There are no tigers in Africa.....

 

[Robert]

Saturno_v,
You are correct I have no numbers to back it up. Just something I read somewhere. And you are correct that .303 with the correct load and a good shooter is capable of taking lion and tiger and the like. So too could my 8mm or 30-06. But I would opt for something a bit larger.

 

[ArmedBear]

saturno: You're conflating two completely different things I wrote.

1. "Dangerous Game Rifle" has a specific meaning, and that's a charge stopper. .375 H&H, at least loaded with spitzers in a bolt gun, isn't really a "dangerous game cartridge" in that sense. "Dangerous Game Rifle", as in the thread title, doesn't just mean "any rifle fired at anything with teeth at any range."

That was completely separate from what I wrote about African minimum caliber requirements -- which AFAIK exist for the reason I stated (not just .303, but also black powder rifles, etc.) Whether or not game management agencies in Africa agree with you is irrelevant.

2. My second post was about what happens to the wounded animal. Does it die in the bush, or does it recover a weaker predator that is more of a danger to humans?

That has NOTHING whatsoever to do with CNS shots. And yes, a tiger shot non-fatally with a .375 H&H is more likely to die from the wounds, in time, than one shot with a weaker round. Nowhere do I mention the idea of "stopping."

 

[NickEllis]

.303... Not a dangerous game round. Can you hit the vitals of a charging or fleeing animal from all angles? If you can't, it's not a dangerous game round.

As for this "we've been brainwashed by the gun industry" prattle, and "we should remember the old guns", there is a reason the "old guys" used massive 4bores, 500nitros, and bigger guns than I'd ever care to use. They weren't deceived by the gun industry they just got tired of getting trampled, eaten, gored, and mauled.

 

[ArmedBear]

there is a reason the "old guys" used massive 4bores, 500nitros, and bigger guns than I'd ever care to use. They weren't deceived by the gun industry they just got tired of getting trampled, eaten, gored, and mauled.

They also got to shoot at far more animals than we ever will.

It's true. Modern bullets with better weight retention probably do make smaller rounds more effective than they once were.

However, a lot of the powerful rounds that have been around for a while were developed by hunters, not the gun industry. These hunters were generally tired of chasing wounded animals around in the mountains.

 

[saturno_v]

Armedbear

The Dangerous Game Rifle moniker can be applied to different rifles and calibers depending on the animal we are talking about.

A 30-30 or a 35 Remington can be perfectly considered a dangerous game rifle if we are talking about pumas or black bear.

On the other end, a 375 H&H cannot be considered an ideal elephant stopper.

The minimum African big 5 caliber requirement at 375 H&H has been considered ridiculous only for lions not by me but by different experienced African hunters, including the South African gentleman that sold me his rifle...a Mauser sporter in 30-06 and he always got his lions, including charging situations.

I do not think is hard to understand the difference between a thick skinned, massively boned 7000 lb Rhino or over 20.000 lb Elephant and a 500 lb at best thiun skinned lion....

Stopping a charge for good has EVERYTHING to do with a CNS hit...

A wounded animal will die depending on where the wound is...a 303 hit in one of his lung will result in a quicker death than a gut shot with a 375....trying to extrapolate a bigger round effectiveness in a wound situation (angle?? distance?? and hundreds of other variables) is misleading at best...

So what happen to the wounded animal has nothing to do with he caliber...

Gaiudo

303... Not a dangerous game round. Can you hit the vitals of a charging or fleeing animal from all angles? If you can't, it's not a dangerous game round.

A bit of confusion here...ability to aim in a dangerous situations has nothing to do with caliber but with the ability of the shooter..

Yes a 303 with proper bullets can hit the vitals or the CNS of a lion from any angle especially at the short distances typical of a charge.

there is a reason the "old guys" used massive 4bores, 500nitros, and bigger guns than I'd ever care to use

Again...mixing apples with oranges here....let's clarify...

1) 4 bores

With black powder the only way to increase the power of a cartridge was to increase enormously the size and weight of the projectiles....

2) 500 Nitro

Was never intended as a lion charge stopper cartridge!!!

 

[RemingtonMan]

Let me be clear, it was not my intention to upset any of you. I did not say that you should go out and buy a .303 and go Brown Bear hunting, I said I did that. I, also told you not to take my word for it, and that I was going to try it on Elk and Moose this year. I did say that you should give it a try, but I have enough sense to know that 99% of hunters cannot afford to go on expensive big game hunts in the North Land. And I was not by myself I had a guide with a 375 Remington Ultra-Magnum right with me. I used the old .303 because I wanted some fun in my life without having to spend alot of money. I admit that I am cheap, but I still own More guns than 99.9% of you and more expensive than the cars that you drive. I just felt cheap that day and made a choice that worked, I did kill the bear with two shots, and it would have died with the first shot, but I wanted to make sure. I can tell that some of you that replied have never been on a big game hunt before with a guide because you made it sound like I was their by myself. And you can't argue with the fact that I had a NO. 4 MKI. British Enfield .303 British (by the way it is not a .30 Cal it is a 31 Caliber bullet .312") with 10 rounds in the magazine and it worked. Now I would not go after, Elephant, or large african game, but I did not say that I would. I mentthat I would use the .303 on North American Big dangerous game. By the way Woodleigh Bullets are great, the slug that was pulled out of the bear held almost complete weight retention.

 

[Schofield3]

The Winchester Ranger Ammunition in .45ACP with a 230gr bullet will do mor damage than a .45ACP with a 185gr. +p. Even in a 9mm, 147gr. work better than 110 gr. +p. Before you question my information, think first.

From Federal: (comparing identical 45 auto loads, other than bullet weight) ballistically speaking the 185gr. has better numbers...


General Information:
Load No Caliber Grains/ Grams Bullet Style Brand Use
C45C 45 Auto 185 / 11.99 JHP Personal Defense®
C45D 45 Auto 230 / 14.9 JHP Personal Defense®


Ballistics Comparisons:
Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)

Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
C45C 45 Auto 950 923 899 876 855
C45D 45 Auto 850 834 819 804 790


Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)

Load No Caliber Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
C45C 45 Auto 371 350 332 315 300
C45D 45 Auto 369 355 343 330 319

I personally still like 230gr. but this is factual information, showing the contrary to what you’ve stated....

 

[ArmedBear]

A 30-30 or a 35 Remington can be perfectly considered a dangerous game rifle if we are talking about pumas or black bear.

Or a .22 if we're talking about stopping an aggressive squirrel with rabies.

But that's still not what "Dangerous Game Rifle" means.

It's a term like "Sports Car" that, while it is made up of words with simple meanings, has a meaning of its own.

 

[Reid73]

I do not care about my writing skills when I am on a online forum.

FYI when someone posts this, I immediately stop reading. It's a PITA to wade through some posts because of how they're written. Most of us are patient, though.

When the poster proclaims that he doesn't care about making his stuff readable, then I don't care to read it.

The fact that it's online doesn't change that.

I agree 100%. But I suspect that his problem is not laziness, it's ignorance. Typos are one thing, but no lawyer is going to confuse there with their ("you made it sound like I was their by myself").

I still own More guns than 99.9% of you and more expensive than the cars that you drive.

Give me a break.

I smell a troll.

 

[Schofield3]

Or a .22 if we're talking about stopping an aggressive squirrel with rabies.

Amen! hahaha

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I've always been under the impression that "Dangerous Game Rifle" means a gun designed to stop very large, very tough, and very angry animals that are actively attempting to kill you. The cartridges tend to be very large, throwing the biggest, bluntest possible slug at the highest feasible speed to do the most possible damage with no regard for ballistics, follow-up shots, or user comfort, because you won't be using it on anything far away, and if you should need to use it, you'll probably only have time for one shot, and that one shot has to count as much as possible.

 

[Reid73]

you won't be using it on anything far away, and if you should need to use it, you'll probably only have time for one shot, and that one shot has to count as much as possible

Amen.

 

[Robert]

I admit that I am cheap, but I still own More guns than 99.9% of you and more expensive than the cars that you drive.

Yes well that clearly makes you better than the rest of us. But I highly doubt that since you are admittedly a cheap skate. And since all three vehicles I own cost more than $325 I guess my vehicles are of higher quality than your super expensive rifle.

 

[Col. Plink]

Sounds like I may have picked up a cheap 'dangerous game' 30'06 rifle at WalMart for $250. Accurate w/a $60 illuminated mildot reticle scope.

 

[ArmedBear]

if you should need to use it, you'll probably only have time for one shot, and that one shot has to count as much as possible.

I'd like to add one thing...

If you should need to use it, "skill" is important, but an animal with big teeth running towards you at 35 MPH is not a paper target, and regular rifle skills are not what you need. That's why DG rifles tend to resemble shotguns more than other rifles.

 

[JShirley]

RemingtonMan, the problem is, you're suggesting using a round that most people would consider minimal for the task of killing the world's largest land predator, and then saying, "Don't take my word for it. Go out and try it (shoot dangerous animals) yourself."

Hmph. Doesn't seem exactly lawyerly advice. Personally, if it's something you would do, fine: your (potential) funeral. Suggesting it for others? Not the best suggestion I've seen here.

As I said previously, the .303 is .311, like the 7.62x54mm.

John

 

[saturno_v]

ArmedBear

Again it all depends on the dangerous game....Pumas and Black bear definitely qualify as dangerous animals....I bet you would fudge your pants in front of an angry mountain lion..not so much facing a rabid squirrel...

There is an interesting article by Chuck Hawks about dangerouns game rifles for North America where there is a distintion between differenc classes of predators and adequate calibers for them...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_NA_game.htm

Sports car doesn't necessarily means only exotic, European 2 seats vehicles....however I agree that a Toyota Corolla with a spoiler and wider tires doesn't qualify as sport car under any circumstances...

I've always been under the impression that "Dangerous Game Rifle" means a gun designed to stop very large, very tough, and very angry animals that are actively attempting to kill you. The cartridges tend to be very large, throwing the biggest, bluntest possible slug at the highest feasible speed to do the most possible damage with no regard for ballistics, follow-up shots, or user comfort, because you won't be using it on anything far away, and if you should need to use it, you'll probably only have time for one shot, and that one shot has to count as much as possible.

That is a perfect description for a 12 Ga shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs!!! Which is indeed my primary choice only for charge situations, even better than my 338.

If you should need to use it, "skill" is important, but an animal with big teeth running towards you at 35 MPH is not a paper target, and regular rifle skills are not what you need. That's why DG rifles tend to resemble shotguns more than other rifles.

It is very true what you are saying but that is an even more restricted category...Dangerous Game Rifles are not only the express type rifles....certain 375 H&H bolt action rifles are considered dangerous game rifles by definition...

Yes short barrels for quick swing and handling characteristic are very important in a charge situation, regardless of the action....

I think that in part it comes down to personal choice too...

 

[ArmedBear]

Yes short barrels for quick swing and handling characteristic are very important in a charge situation, regardless of the action....

Proper fit and choice of sighting system are important, also.

Chuck Hawks has some good info, but some of what he says needs to be taken with a mountain of rock salt. He doesn't really differentiate between subjects with which he has actual experience, and those which he's just repeating what he's read.

 

[saturno_v]

Yes. the sighting system is very important too, clearly visible V shaped rear sight, etc......and no scopes, at least not the usual variable power ones....low magnification and very tough..

I respect Chuck Hawks because has a scientifical approach to topics, not very common, unfortunately, among many in the firearms world....and he has been there and done that...

Of course he's not the bible or anything but he's not a marketer and/or salesman either.....

People pay to read his extensive material...

Overall, many individuals that hunt dangerous animals says that is always best not being alone....if, for example, you are hunting brownies in Alaska with your typical long range scoped 338 Win Mag, have someone next to you with a proper tool for close range defense, like a short barreled 45-70 lever action, a 12 ga pump action shotgun with Brenneke slugs, or even a 30-06 Remington pump or a 338 with the proper setup....and maybe the 2 of you can take turn...there is not a single weapon that excel in both situations, charge and hunting....

 

[ArmedBear]

I don't think it's "scientific" to publish data that's empirically ridiculous.

E.g., .45-70-405 insufficient for cow elk at the muzzle, according to this chart.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm

"Scientific" would have to include at least some nod to experimental evidence.

I've read a lot of his stuff, and learned from it.

However... One must be careful not to learn too much that isn't so.

 

[NELSONs02]

Don't hear much about the .35 whelen, I'd consider that as a low end dangerous game round.

With a 250gr I'd think you could put the hurtin on a bear.

 

[Gryffydd]

.303 British (by the way it is not a .30 Cal it is a 31 Caliber bullet .312")

And the .44 is .429, the .45 is .452, .458 the .30 is .308, .311, and on and on. What's the point? That a .31 caliber bullet at the same weight and speed is going to do more energy?


...Dang it, this troll food just practically jumps out of my pockets.

Chuck Hawks has some good info, but some of what he says needs to be taken with a mountain of rock salt.He doesn't really differentiate between subjects with which he has actual experience, and those which he's just repeating what he's read.

Quoted for Truth

 

[saturno_v]

ArmedBear

I just read that table and actually it makes sense in a way.

Chuck Hawks listed load for the 45-70-405 (405 gr. at 1330 fps) has a muzzle energy of 1590 ft/lb (way less than a 30-30, almost 20% less)

I think he refers to the original trapdoor load.

So what that kind of muzzle energy his assumption is somewhat right...

The modern lever action or Ruger single shot rifle loads for the 45-70 have very little to do with the original Trapdoor load....some 45-70 "nuclear" loads develop over 4000 ft/lb at the muzzle!!!!!

When people talk about 45-70 it should always be clarified to what type of loads they refer too...Standard Trapdoor, Lever or Strong...