A dangerous combination ?

[Obturation]

Hey all,
Hope everyone's feeling good.

I'm going to go ahead and beat this long dead horse one more time for peace of mind.

I consider myself a fairly experienced handloader and I have a good understanding of proper loading practices . I'm not terribly concerned with what I'm about to present but variables exist and I just wanted to bounce it off the wise folks around here.

I don't load cartridges that I (used to be able to) buy cheap. That includes 45 acp , as we all know nothing's cheap anymore. So I decided I'll start reloading 45 acp, probably do 10mm too if this thing goes smoothly. Up to this point I only load for revolvers, lever actions and a could bottleneck rifle cartridges .

Here's the question-
The primary gun I'll be shooting these loads with is a g30sf with a stock barrel. I know the common wisdom that coated bullets are good to go in stock glock barrels (intended bullets are 230 grain rn hi-tek coated). Just wanted to make sure others have found that's true. Second part of this is related to possible interaction of coatings with double based powders. Never got a clear picture if this concern is still out there/did it ever exist with hi-tek?

My thought is that I may be walking a fine line between using bullets that are technically cast and coated with powder that may clump or deteriorate coatings. Maybe I'm just over thinking this thing and I should just load and shoot but my bullets aren't here yet so I've got time to talk about it.

I was talking to some folks on here a while back about the potential of double based powders to affect coatings and never got a clear answer . at that point I started an experiment , I put a couple hi-tek coated bullets in a little bottles with some 2400 & another with clays to see if anything would happen. It's been a year or 2 and here's how they look-
2400-
Looks good to me.

Clays-

Looks fine.

To me I see no sticky powder or missing coating.

The only 2 powders I have that I think may be appropriate for 45 acp are titegroup & clays. Thinking the titegroup may be better , what do ya think ?

Like I said, I think I'll be just fine but I've got time to yak about it and it's on my mind so what the heck.

Whaddya think?

 

[edwardware]

I've never seen a word of any powder/powder coating or HiTek interaction, and both have been in use for a decade. I'm confident there's nothing there.

I have observed HiTek'd cast 9mm bullets leading in a poly Glock barrel, so pay attention.

 

[Y-T71]

I have 3 9mm bullets Left from a batch that I powder coated with HF red and loaded with Alliant Power Pistol; supposedly has a high nitroglycerin content.

My records indicate that I loaded these in 2013 and they were an accidental under charge; still functioned but that's why I never finished shooting those last 3.

I'll try to remember to pull them tomorrow and see what they look like and post pics.

 

[Ru4real]

I grew up using Universal in 45 ACP. And Tightgroup is great also, very close to Universal. And neither one has issues with Hi-Tek coatings in my experience, which is about 10 years for the powder / coating combination.

 

[Y-T71]

Eh, went down and got it done tonight
This is how they've been stored since 4-6-14 (I realized I made a mistake on the date when I rechecked my records)




Powder brushed right off.
No stickiness and no smell/signs of deterioration of either the powder or the powder coat.

 

[AJC1]

Clays is a single base and the reason I bought two bottles of universal. I have seen many videos on the topic of coatings and reactions with powder.... all I can say is some do and some don't.
As far as glock goes, they say absolutely no reloads.... I planned to shoot a lot of lead so I bought a stainless storm lake barrel and used that. No case support issues, no lead rifling issues just better accuracy and a chamber that wasn't made with a marlin worn out sausage reamer.

 

[Obturation]

Eh, went down and got it done tonight
This is how they've been stored since 4-6-14 (I realized I made a mistake on the date when I rechecked my records)
View attachment 1074445
View attachment 1074446
View attachment 1074447
View attachment 1074448
Powder brushed right off.
No stickiness and no smell/signs of deterioration of either the powder or the powder coat.

This is very good info. I value real world experience over internet expertise every time. I know I can make functional and safe reloads- that's not a question in my mind. The shakey part is what happens when those loads sit in an ammo can a few years. The only part of handloading I'm not 100% comfortable with is the powder side of things. I'll admit that I do still weigh ever charge I throw, even with powders like 2400 that are very consistent. I've got no problem confirming charge weights for any cartridge but then I trust father time will treat me right, of course none of us are in control over what happens as things degrade and attempt to rejoin nature. A shelf life of 10 years is great, 20 is even better. If I'm shooting my reloads from 20 years in the past I'm going to have to say that something happened to prevent me from producing more, they should be shot up within a year or so. But who knows, every firearm I load for is overly robust- rugers, Marlins ect. If something goes sideways the margin or error is large. Glocks are robust too but not in the same way a super redhawk is. Knock on wood............ive had zero issues in about 30k + reloads I've produced but I do hover on the edge of reasonable with some of them. For this project I intend to stay well on the safe side of things and just make some blasto range loads for practice , that's about it.

 

[Bazoo]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?439304-Effect-of-powder-coating-on-the-gunpowder

Here’s a thread I’m following on CB.GL forum. Its very interesting to me, though a lot of folks blow it off like it’s nothing. I personally think it’s worth investigating.

 

[Bazoo]

Eh, went down and got it done tonight
This is how they've been stored since 4-6-14 (I realized I made a mistake on the date when I rechecked my records)
View attachment 1074445
View attachment 1074446
View attachment 1074447
View attachment 1074448
Powder brushed right off.
No stickiness and no smell/signs of deterioration of either the powder or the powder coat.

it looks like the PC is more pitted on the base than the sizes. Is that just from sizing or did the powder indeed cause some bubbling of the PC?

I’d be interested to see a smash test on the sideways (so the base is smashed) bullet.

 

[Obturation]

Clays is a single base and the reason I bought two bottles of universal. I have seen many videos on the topic of coatings and reactions with powder.... all I can say is some do and some don't.
As far as glock goes, they say absolutely no reloads.... I planned to shoot a lot of lead so I bought a stainless storm lake barrel and used that. No case support issues, no lead rifling issues just better accuracy and a chamber that wasn't made with a marlin worn out sausage reamer.

I know. I had a lone wolf thing for my g21 but sold it all years ago, wasn't a fan of that specific aftermarket barrel and didn't need that pistol anymore when I got a g20 to replace it. I don't want to replace the g30 barrel, it's not a monetary thing , more of a reliability thing- it's my primary carry gun. I like the sloppy loose chamber and absolute reliability of it in its current form. I used to do 1911s, if that was still the case this thread wouldn't exist.

I may get a good quality aftermarket barrel for my g30 at some point but for now I'm going to do my best with the polygonal creature that it has.

 

[mokin]

Interesting topic. I've been loading coated bullets for five years or so. The idea that the coating might not play nice with the powder never occurred to me. Thanks for posting the results of your experiment.

 

[Targa]

Knock it off you guys. Your making me reconsider powder coating and going back to traditional lubing…. Although I really can’t imagine it effecting the end result very much.

 

[Shak3s1977]

it looks like the PC is more pitted on the base than the sizes. Is that just from sizing or did the powder indeed cause some bubbling of the PC?

I’d be interested to see a smash test on the sideways (so the base is smashed) bullet.

The weird pitting is usually from standing up on foil or something while cooking. All of mine have a pitted looking bottom, from the shake and bake method.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

My Caniks have polly rifling. Coated cast lead up in them. I don't own a Glock center fire to compare to. Copper plated and FMJ they are fine. Now to the tight group. I had leading with it in 9mm and .380. 40sw and 45 acp it wasn't to bad though. Still had some leading. But nothing like in the smaller bores. Bullseye is hotter than T.G. But i have no issues with it. There is a warning about leading on SNS casting site. I no longer use there bullets. I change to summers enterprises. I should try his with some T.G.

 

[Blue68f100]

The problem may occur if the PC is not cured properly. So if you don't bake it long enough to make it set there is a possibility of an issue. This was reported an issue with high nitro powders when pc started showing up. Not sure it still is, or ever was. The bad thing about TG is that it runs so blasted hot.

 

[Soonerpesek]

Shoot them ......
If you get leading in the barrel..........( you won't if the velocity isn't freakishly high )...
Clean it........
Have fun.....
Repeat......

 

[Y-T71]

The weird pitting is usually from standing up on foil or something while cooking. All of mine have a pitted looking bottom, from the shake and bake method.

I believe that's exactly what the pitting is about.
I would re-use the same piece of non-stick foil sometimes even after they began to stick a little bit.

I'm pretty sure I have more of those bullets stored that have never been loaded so that would give us the exact condition of the base PC; a "control" of sorts.

I have a lot of ammo I have loaded years ago.
Much of it by myself.

I used to shoot thousands and thousands of rounds a year for years at a private range.

Then, unfortunately, I lost access to that range, along the way got married, had kids, lived a different lifestyle that didn't afford me that kind of free time anymore so my inventory simply aged.

I also inherited a substantial quantity of ammo when my father passed away in 2005.

Hell, 3 years ago I shot up an ammo can full of light, "target" .44mag that he had loaded in 1999!
Shot like it was made yesterday.

 

[lordpaxman]

The only 2 powders I have that I think may be appropriate for 45 acp are titegroup & clays. Thinking the titegroup may be better , what do ya think ?

Either are fine for target loads. Personally I prefer Clays over TG for .45 target, the recoil impulse is night and day, but please, do load both and test both! Good luck.

I grew up using Universal in 45 ACP. And Tightgroup is great also, very close to Universal.

Universal does the job in a lot of calibers including .45. I would not put Titegroup “very close” to Universal though. TG is bordering on Uber-fast, and Universal is in the medium burn rate pile.

For those of you losing sleep at night with the powder/coating conundrum, just store your rounds bullets up and rest assured gravity will work for you, free.

 

[Y-T71]

it looks like the PC is more pitted on the base than the sizes. Is that just from sizing or did the powder indeed cause some bubbling of the PC?

I’d be interested to see a smash test on the sideways (so the base is smashed) bullet.

I did find a couple of hundred of the original bullets that had never been loaded

I also ran the "smash test"

Took a picture of 4, random: not "cherry picked" never loaded bullets and put them on each side of the smashed bullet from the same batch but had been left loaded with Alliant Power Pistol and stored with the powder directly resting on the bullets base for the last 8 years.

Everyone (who is Interested of course) can come to their own conclusions.

 

[Bazoo]

I appreciate the effort you went through there @Y-T71 That’s very informative.

 

[Y-T71]

I appreciate the effort you went through there @Y-T71 That’s very informative.

Of course! You're welcome.

And, I'm happy to do any other experiments (within reason ) or answer any other questions.

The funny thing is that I didn't really "do" anything except beat the @#$& out of a bullet and take a picture...kinda therapeutic...

I was only vaguely aware that this situation (chemical reactions between PC and powder) had some level of controversy associated with and personally never gave it a thought until I saw this thread and remembered I had those unfired rounds.

As far as I'm personally concerned, this issue is a big 'ol nothin burger.

 

[Thomasss]

Have you ever thought of contacting Hodgdon, Acme bullet or Missouri Bullet Co. They all have tech support that would answer your question. I'm sure they also have tested this for liability.
Another factor may be powder that is already starting to breakdown.

 

[Y-T71]

Have you ever thought of contacting Hodgdon, Acme bullet or Missouri Bullet Co. They all have tech support that would answer your question. I'm sure they also have tested this for liability.
Another factor may be powder that is already starting to breakdown.

Are you asking me?

No, I simply never cared.

Like I said, I just happened to be in the unique position to add some useful input to the OP's question.

I did, briefly wonder about the marketing associated with Alliant Sport Pistol where they made it a point to say that powder was, among other things, formulated especially to not react with coated bullets.

I've been "burned" by creative marketing in the past so I didn't take it seriously.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I use sport pistol. It works good with coated bullets. I also found out it ranks 13th on the burn rate chart. That came from Lymans 51st.

 

[Soonerpesek]

I use sport pistol. It works good with coated bullets. I also found out it ranks 13th on the burn rate chart. That came from Lymans 51st.

....and it has a flash suppressant.....