Prisoner Abuse.....details!

[Derius_T]

FlyBoy Wrote:

How do you reconcile that--particularly the bit about "[guarding] even his enemy from oppression"--with your previous statements?

As I said before:

Not that I'm advocating torture, I'm not....but they shouldn't get a holiday inn vacation either.

I'm saying we should stoop to their level, and torture or maim (OPPRESS)
them, but we don't need to coddle and sooth them either! They are
PRISONERS. They should get the same ammenities and accomodations our
people get!? Are you SERIOUS!? When you are a PRISONER, you are a
PRISONER, not an honored guest....by its very definition being a PRISONER
means you are to be DEPRIVED of PRIVLEDGES and FREEDOMS, afforded to
NON-PRISONERS.....

 

[Flyboy]

They should get the same ammenities and accomodations our people get!? Are you SERIOUS!?

Yes. I am. And so was the US Government when it signed on to the Geneva Conventions, which you so thoughtfully quoted for us. Or does that not count?

Yes, they're denied freedom--that's what "prisoner" means. You can still be a prisoner and be treated civilly (as we promised to do).

We--the United States--made a promise to the world to behave within certain standards when at war. Nobody forced us to do so (certainly not in 1948--who could have done so?); we did it of our own accord. Anybody can live up to a promise when it's easy; principles are what you do when it's inconvenient.

Are you honestly suggesting we abandon our principles, and break a pledge sealed with "our sacred honor," because it's become inconvenient to us?

 

[larryw]

What was the reservation?

 

[Luckyorwhat]

larryw "those responsible are being punished."
The thing is that those truly responsible are being promoted. A dozen morons who photographed way too much stuff are going to be punished. Everyone else goes on with their lives.

Derius_T
"They should get the same ammenities and accomodations our
people get!?"

Well, we all die, equally. Why not live equally? I mean, the two guys fighting each other understand each-other's situation better than anyone else on Earth. They have everything in common, even the drywall seperating them. Sort of like "Hey man, my regiment got the ???? kicked out of it by artillery too, I know where you've been."

Benefit of comfortable imprisonment - enemy might surrender rather than fight to the death. Surrendering enemy is a good thing. At Monte Cassino it was calculated that ~$25,000 in munitions were being spent per German casualty, and many wondered what would happen if they simply offered the cash for surrender.

Now enemies know that their choice is between A)being blown up by bombs from an airplane they never see B)being captured and tortured INDEFINATELY C)'coward' weapons; suicide bombers and IEDs

 

[larryw]

The thing is that those truly responsible are being promoted. A dozen morons who photographed way too much stuff are going to be punished. Everyone else goes on with their lives.

Uh huh, like I said, trying to apply the actions of a few to all.

Benefit of comfortable imprisonment - enemy might surrender rather than fight to the death.

LOL, are you serious? Have you been paying attention?

 

[Derius_T]

Are you honestly suggesting we abandon our principles, and break a pledge sealed with "our sacred honor," because it's become inconvenient to us?

We as people do alot of things, when trying to do right, and trying to
set an example for the way one SHOULD behave, that turn around
and bite us in the keister later. I'm not saying become barbarians,
but you have to consider the mindset of the people that we are
dealing with. No matter how good we treat them, no matter how
much we give them, they will always hold us in contempt, and will
always hate us, and always seek to do us harm. NOTHING WE DO
is going to change that. All we are doing by accomodating these
people are showing our weakness (in their eyes) and unworthiness.
All we are doing is soothing our own consciences, so we can say,
"Well, they beheaded, and maimed, and tortured us, but we didn't!
We are better than them!" What the hell good does that do us?
Really? Does it bring back the dead? Does it stop the war?
Does it teach them to respect us? Whats the point?

 

[Flyboy]

Henry Bowman, et al:
Several of you have stated that you don't believe humiliation is torture. Here's the rebuttal.

In 1971, psychologists at Stanford conducted a now-famous study on prisons and behavior of guards and prisoners. I'm not going to summarize it here; to be honest, I don't think I can. Go read http://www.prisonexp.org/ . Read all of the slides, and pay particular attention to the debriefing at the end. And keep in mind that this ran for only five days, and that all participants were volunteers, who knew what they were getting into before they joined (informed consent).

 

[Flyboy]

...they will always hold us in contempt, and will always hate us, and always seek to do us harm. NOTHING WE DO is going to change that.

Ah. Well, if nothing we do will change the fact that they hate us, then we may as well treat them as less-than-human.

We are better than them!" What the hell good does that do us? Really? Does it bring back the dead? Does it stop the war? Does it teach them to respect us? Whats the point?

Good question. What's the point of treating them as subhuman? It doesn't seem to be stopping the war, or bringing back the dead, and it certainly doesn't make them respect us.

Go have a look at the top-left corner of this page. You might notice the logo says "The High Road." I wonder, what exactly does that mean to you? That's an honest question--what does it mean to you to take the high road?

(Oh, and on an unrelated topic: please don't hit enter unless you're ending a paragraph. It makes it cumbersome to quote, and the text will wrap fine without it.)

 

[TonkinTwentyMil]

"Prisoner Abuse"

Ladies and gentlemen:

May I humbly remind you that:

1. Most of the Abu Ghraib/Gitmo press coverage we get is solidly grounded in a very purpose-filled (PC) point of view... and selling a certain (anti-war) agenda. Accordingly, I urge caution when "buying" what they're "selling", and...

2. During the Vietnam War, American combat air crews routinely went through certain pre-deployment Survival and P.O.W. training programs that (would) make Abu Ghraib look like a Girl Scout camp. In fact, the US Navy's infamous "school" in Warner Springs (high desert) California was renowned (feared) for its reality-based (i.e., real-world stuff from the Korea and early Vietnam experiences) scenario, complete with the "water-board", hyper-claustrophobic (2' x 2' x 3') locking individual "caskets", 2-on-one interrogation... with brutal punching, machine-gun towers (firing very loud blanks) and all the usual sleep/food/etc. deprivations. I've heard that this has been toned down in recent years as Clintonized PC-ness sought to groom a Kinder/Gentler/Less-Macho/Uni-sex military... perhaps because one officer actually SUED the Navy after his training school experience!

Now, if only those MEAN-AND-NATHTY Al Queda insurgents and (MERTHY GOODNETH!) not-in-any-national-uniform Terrorists will grant us the right to sue THEM -- perhaps in the World Court -- for (a) flying airplanes into our buildings, and (b) torturing/beheading civilian non-combatants... then perhaps we can make 'em see the light without shedding any blood at all!

And then we can all get-along, play nice-nice, and sing "Kumbaya" around a camp-fire. And the NY TIMES can write about the triumph of non-violence. And we can Bring The Troops Home (isn't that what they're made for?). And the U.S. can drastically cut military spending -- the old Peace Dividend -- and we can start spending more money on social programs like our *wiser* Euro "allies", thus re-launching the Welfare State.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Flyboy -- I read your rebuttal link completely. I am unconvenced. I an not condoning sadism. As much as we may at time want to "get even," that is not what I am defending. Interrogation is a proper proceedure. I still think that it is fortunate that the people of this culture are so easily knocked off kilter by such mild techniques.

On the other hand, you may be right that if we all sit around with the terrorists and sing Kumbya and then send them home to spread the good will, they will surely all have a change of heart.

 

[Flyboy]

On the other hand, you may be right that if we all sit around with the terrorists and sing Kumbya and then send them home to spread the good will, they will surely all have a change of heart.

I am suggesting no such thing. I recognize that nothing we do is likely to change that, particularly nothing we do in prison. I'm not suggesting that we treat them humanely because it'll fix things.

Rather, I'm suggesting that we treat them humanely because it's the right thing to do. Nietzche once said to "let those who fight monsters take care lest they themselves become monsters;" that's exactly the point here. Is is important to maintain clean hands, particularly when going to war on moral grounds.

 

[Henry Bowman]

I think we simply disagree on the definition of "humane." Granted, that may be no small issue. However, I can sleep well at night knowing that an American female (military or otherwise) engaged in behavior in front of "suspected" terrorists that would be too mild to sell in a "Spring Break Miami -- Girls Gone Wild" video, and that said detainee/prisoner was upset by it.

EOM

 

[jsalcedo]

At least we aren't putting them on a pork fat slip and slides or wafting frying bacon smell at them.

Regarding the article.

So she was having sex with multiple partners in front of the prisoners.

First of all I don't think its inhumane from my perspective.

But I have questions.

Did they plan this out? Was this in their interogation for dummies book?
Did they have "sexual humiliation" on their daily planner?

Was she just a slut with no morals that got her jollies in front of an audience?

I'm not a prude or anything but this type behavior in our armed forces is disconcerting.

 

[Luckyorwhat]

Umm, yes, R2I technique is based on sexual elements.

As for absolute proof the treating prisoners humanely makes them surrender, look at the Eastern Front in WW2. Compare how many surrendered to Russians versus how many surrendered to Americans. Look at Wavell in N.Africa! Jesus it is win-win situation to not perform evil acts.

This reversal of policy is unprecedented in western history, very very strange. Very very scary. If people sound like they are coming down on the USA it is likely nothing personal, just a desperate guttoral sense of self preservation.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Eh, give Ahmed a good old fashioned liberty lapdance, I say. Let freedom ring!

 

[Derius_T]

Go have a look at the top-left corner of this page. You might notice the logo says "The High Road." I wonder, what exactly does that mean to you? That's an honest question--what does it mean to you to take the high road?

(Oh, and on an unrelated topic: please don't hit enter unless you're ending a paragraph. It makes it cumbersome to quote, and the text will wrap fine without it.)

To me, it means to rise above, and to be morally strong, and stand up for your beliefs. But, that is not what is at question here. You believe what they did to the prisoners was morally wrong, I don't. I believe certain measures must be taken to secure information, that could keep more of our brave soldiers form dying. Now as I have said, I do not advocate physical torture, but being made 'uncomfortable' is too harsh? Good GOD, how wishy washy do we have to get? We used to be a strong country. Respected and feared for our resolve, and willingness to back it up with a boot in your @ss! Now we are a joke among world leaders, who know we will bend right over for the sake of being 'PC'. It discusts me. Does being 'morally right' or taking the 'high road' mean that you can't kick a little @ss when necessary, cause it might hurt someones feelings? Where do we draw the line? When do we say, enough is enough?

(and as to the typing, alot of these boards are different format, so I will try to remember to stay away from that pesky 'ol enter key)

 

[gc70]

I am not really comfortable with the slippery slope between coersion and torture. I am also uncomfortable with the choice between the standards attached to 'prisoner of war' and 'illegal noncombatant.'

If the prisoners are 'prisoners of war' then I guess there would be no interrogation except "name, rank, and serial number" and they would be entitled to little beachside cabannas, exercise and recreation areas, care packages from home, and the right to communicate any intelligence they could to their buddies 'back home.' There is no way that I find that acceptable.

If the prisoners are 'illegal noncombatants' it appears that the US courts want to give them all possible rights and protections available under US law. Hauling a guy with an AK-47 out of a hole after a firefight in Afghanistan is somewhat different from an arrest made on a warrant issed by a judge. But the civil and criminal laws of the US are simply not suited to dealing with those prisoners.

A number of the prisoners have already been returned to their countries of origin (4 went to the UK recently) and many of those were promptly set free. Some of the ones that have been freed have already made their way back into battle and have been killed. That may be the best solution - set them free and hope that during the next violent encounter we can kill them before they can injure more Americans. On the other hand, I would not want to be the officer who had to inform a soldier's loved ones that the soldier had been killed by a former prisoner who was freed so that the US could hold the moral high ground against terrorists.

 

[Luckyorwhat]

Good point about the slippery slope, couldn't agree more. For instance, most people here are using the barbarism of the insurents to justify further barbarism, though the isurgent barbarism was a direct result of our actions towards them.

1) Iraqis tread J. Lynch admirably. 2)American prisons horrifically abuse Iraqis. 3) Iraqi insurgents dress captives up like prisoners in A.G. and behead them. 4) _______________? (fill in the blank)


"A number of the prisoners have already been returned to their countries of origin (4 went to the UK recently) and many of those were promptly set free. Some of the ones that have been freed have already made their way back into battle and have been killed."

About that, it's actually a horrifying episode. The people arrested and sent to Cuba had all sorts of evidence to prove their innocence. Witnesses, documents, the utter impossibility of them being where they were accused of being. Ordinary innocent civilians were grabbed off the street and sent to a kennel in Cuba. They were there for years.Years. Years! This really, honestly, actually could happen to anyone. Anyone.

 

[Sparks]

If the prisoners are 'prisoners of war' then I guess there would be no interrogation except "name, rank, and serial number" and they would be entitled to little beachside cabannas, exercise and recreation areas, care packages from home, and the right to communicate any intelligence they could to their buddies 'back home.' There is no way that I find that acceptable.

You just described a WW2 PoW camp (except for the beachside bit and the letters to home bit). You would prefer instead that all PoWs be executed out of hand?
(And this is still assuming that Achmed is actually a PoW and not a guy picked up on the side of the mountain while tending goats).

Some of the ones that have been freed have already made their way back into battle and have been killed.

Any chance of getting to see the source for that?

 

[Joey2]

We are suppose to be a Christian nation. It sounds like we have lost our moral direction by allowing ourselves to be sucked into the same sewer as the muslims.

Just imagine what the backlash would be if the muslims were doing the same thing to Americans being held prisoner? You would be screaming from the roof tops.

 

[R.H. Lee]

We are suppose to be a Christian nation. It sounds like we have lost our moral direction by allowing ourselves to be sucked into the same sewer as the muslims.

Actually a case could be made that we're the ones that created the sewer with the filth, perversion, sadism and degeneracy that emanates from Hollywood and the liberal left. Fundamental Islam has a big problem with that trash being foisted off on them.

 

[moby clarke]

I do not support torture,

but this is still funny:
A person wrote a letter to the White House complaining about the treatment of a captive taken during the Afghanistan war. Attached is a copy of a letter they received back:
The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C.
Dear Concerned Citizen:
Thank you for your recent letter roundly criticizing our treatment of the Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees currently being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. My administration takes these matters seriously, and your opinion was heard loud and clear here in Washington.
You'll be pleased to learn that, thanks to the concerns of citizens like you, we are creating a new division of the Terrorist Retraining Program, to be called the "Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers" program, or LARK for short.
In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided to place one terrorist under your personal care. Your personal detainee has been selected and scheduled for transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence next Monday. Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your letter of admonishment. It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers. We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommended in your letter.
Ahmed's meal requirements are simple, but we strongly suggest serving meals that do not require utensils, particularly knives and forks. Also, these should be "one-handed" foods; Ahmed will not eat with his left hand since he uses it to wipe himself after purging his bowels (which he will do in your yard) - but look on the bright side.. no increase in the toilet paper bill. He generally bathes quarterly with the change of seasons, assuming that it rains, and he washes his clothes simultaneously. This should help with your water bill. Also, your new friend has a really bad case of body lice that hasn't been completely remedied.
Please heed the large orange notice attached to your detainee's cage: "Does not play well with others." Although Ahmed is sociopathic and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what you described as his "attitudinal problem" will help him overcome these character flaws. Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural differences. He will bite you, given the chance, but his rabies test came back negative so not to worry.
We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling. Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers. We do not suggest that you ask him to demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.
Ahmed will not wish to interact with your wife or daughters (except sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property. However, he will be eager to assist with the education of your sons; have available for their use several copies of the Koran. Oh - and rest assured he absolutely loves animals, especially cats and dogs. He prefers them roasted, but raw is fine, too, if they aren't more than 2 or 3 days dead.
Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks like you, who know so much, keep us informed of the proper way to do our job. We think this watching over each other's shoulder is such a good way for people to interact that we will be sending a team of federal officials with expertise in your line of work to your place of business soon, just to help you do your job better. Don't be concerned that they have the power to close your business, seize your property, and arrest you for any violation of the 4,850,206 laws, codes, regulations and rules that apply to your profession. They're really there just to make sure you're doing everything the proper way. That is what you wanted, right?
Well, thank you for this opportunity to interact with such a valued member of the citizenry. You take good care of Ahmed - and remember...we'll be watching.

 

[Luckyorwhat]

RileyMC,
You could also point out that it is the American Right-wing that pushes the Left-Wing filth. The left makes the stuff, the right makes a profit on the stuff.

 

[Joey2]

Riley Mc, I agree. Just turn your T.V. on, go to the movies, look around how are youth, and some of the older generation, dress, listen to how our youth talk, etc, etc.

 

[gc70]

Sparks:
You just described a WW2 PoW camp (except for the beachside bit and the letters to home bit). You would prefer instead that all PoWs be executed out of hand?

The "beachside bit" was an intentional reference to the fact that Guantanamo is a naval base on a tropical island, otherwise the land would be a prime site for a resort development.

Your reference to executions was not called for and certainly does not reflect my sentiments.

True prisoners of war should be accorded all of the protections of the Geneva Convention. I object to terrorists who hide in the shadows and wear civilian clothing being given the same protections as uniformed military personnel who are captured during wartime. As to your inappropriate suggestion that I might prefer that POWs be executed, I would remind you that military personnel captured out of uniform during World War II were considered spies and many were (legally) executed on the spot.

Had you read my post fully, you would have noted that I concluded that the prisoners at Guantanamo should probably be set free. Any prisoners set free would hopefully return to their homes and live a peaceful life. (This approach would also neatly address the issue of Achmed the innocent goat herder.) Unfortunately, such an approach presents a moral dilema when applied to men who lack the honor to keep their pledge to not return to battle in exchange for their freedom. Therefore, if they returned to battle, it would be my fervent hope that they would be killed before they killed others.

gc70:
Some of the ones that have been freed have already made their way back into battle and have been killed.

Sparks:
Any chance of getting to see the source for that?

How about this article which was the first item listed in a Google search for "guantanamo detainees freed killed battle."