Prisoner Abuse.....details!

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Derius_T

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SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - Female interrogators tried to break Muslim detainees at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay by sexual touching, wearing a miniskirt and thong underwear and in one case smearing a Saudi man's face with fake menstrual blood, according to an insider's written account.

One female civilian contractor used a special outfit that included a miniskirt, thong underwear and a bra during late-night interrogations with prisoners, mostly Muslim men who consider it taboo to have close contact with women who aren't their wives.

Beginning in April 2003, `there hung a short skirt and thong underwear on the hook on the back of the door'' of one interrogation team's office, he writes. ``Later I learned that this outfit was used for interrogations by one of the female civilian contractors ... on a team which conducted interrogations in the middle of the night on Saudi men who were refusing to talk.''

Some Guantanamo prisoners who have been released say they were tormented by ``prostitutes.''

The female interrogator wanted to ``break him,'' Saar adds, describing how she removed her uniform top to expose a tight-fitting T-shirt and began taunting the detainee, touching her breasts, rubbing them against the prisoner's back and commenting on his apparent erection.

The detainee looked up and spat in her face, the manuscript recounts.

The interrogator left the room to ask a Muslim linguist how she could break the prisoner's reliance on God. The linguist told her to tell the detainee that she was menstruating, touch him, then make sure to turn off the water in his cell so he couldn't wash.

Strict interpretation of Islamic law forbids physical contact with women other than a man's wife or family, and with any menstruating women, who are considered unclean.

``The concept was to make the detainee feel that after talking to her he was unclean and was unable to go before his God in prayer and gain strength,'' says the draft, stamped ``Secret.''

The interrogator used ink from a red pen to fool the detainee, Saar writes.

``She then started to place her hands in her pants as she walked behind the detainee,'' he says. ``As she circled around him he could see that she was taking her hand out of her pants. When it became visible the detainee saw what appeared to be red blood on her hand. She said, 'Who sent you to Arizona?' He then glared at her with a piercing look of hatred.

``She then wiped the red ink on his face. He shouted at the top of his lungs, spat at her and lunged forward'' - so fiercely that he broke loose from one ankle shackle.

``He began to cry like a baby,'' the draft says, noting the interrogator left saying, ``Have a fun night in your cell without any water to clean yourself.''

Events Saar describes resemble two previous reports of abusive female interrogation tactics, although it wasn't possible to independently verify his account.

In November, in response to an AP request, the military described an April 2003 incident in which a female interrogator took off her uniform top, exposed her brown T-shirt, ran her fingers through a detainee's hair and sat on his lap. That session was immediately ended by a supervisor and that interrogator received a written reprimand and additional training, the military said.

In another incident, the military reported that in early 2003 a different female interrogator ``wiped dye from red magic marker on detainees' shirt after detainee spit (cq) on her,'' telling the detainee it was blood. She was verbally reprimanded, the military said.

Sexual tactics used by female interrogators have been criticized by the FBI, which complained in a letter obtained by AP last month that U.S. defense officials hadn't acted on complaints by FBI observers of ``highly aggressive'' interrogation techniques, including one in which a female interrogator grabbed a detainee's genitals.

About 20 percent of the guards at Guantanamo are women, said Lt. Col. James Marshall, a spokesman for U.S. Southern Command. He wouldn't say how many of the interrogators were female.

Marshall wouldn't address whether the U.S. military had a specific strategy to use women.

``U.S. forces treat all detainees and conduct all interrogations, wherever they may occur, humanely and consistent with U.S. legal obligations, and in particular with legal obligations prohibiting torture,'' Marshall said late Wednesday.

But some officials at the U.S. Southern Command have questioned the formation of an all-female team as one of Guantanamo's ``Immediate Reaction Force'' units that subdue troublesome male prisoners in their cells, according to a document classified as secret and obtained by AP.

In one incident, dated June 19, 2004, ``The detainee appears to be genuinely traumatized by a female escort securing the detainee's leg irons,'' according to the document, a U.S. Southern Command summary of videotapes shot when the teams were used.

The summary warned that anyone outside Department of Defense channels should be prepared to address allegations that women were used intentionally with Muslim men.

At Guantanamo, Saar said, ``Interrogators were given a lot of latitude under Miller,'' the commander who went from the prison in Cuba to overseeing prisons in Iraq, where the Abu Ghraib scandal shocked the world with pictures revealing sexual humiliation of naked prisoners.

Several female troops have been charged in the Abu Ghraib scandal.

Saar said he volunteered to go to Guantanamo because ``I really believed in the mission,'' but then he became disillusioned during his six months at the prison.

After leaving the Army with more than four years service, Saar worked as a contractor briefly for the FBI.

The Department of Defense has censored parts of his draft, mainly blacking out people's names, said Saar, who hired Washington attorney Mark S. Zaid to represent him. Saar needed permission to publish because he signed a disclosure statement before going to Guantanamo.

The book, which Saar titled ``Inside the Wire,'' is due out this year with Penguin Press.

Guantanamo has about 545 prisoners from some 40 countries, many held more than three years without charge or access to lawyers and many suspected of links to al-Qaida or Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime, which harbored the terrorist network.

EDITOR'S NOTE: Paisley Dodds is an Associated Press reporter based in San Juan, Puerto Rico, and has been covering the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, since it opened in 2002.

On the Web:

http://www.defenselink.mil


Like I said over on TFL, people scream and cry about us "TORTURING" the
poor Iraqi Soldiers......explain how this is torture? If it is, can I be tortured
a little too? Now when I think of torture, I think of all the horrible things
THEY do to OUR PEOPLE! Beheading, cutting off body parts, ect. How can
people even put this in the same context!? So their being 'tortured' by some
pretty girls in bra's and g-strings......wow......most people have to PAY for
that.........
 
That report's over a year old for a start. Even ignoring the reports of waterboarding and other practises that have come out since, and the reports from Abu Grahib which indicate how far interrogations have gone in other US facilities, you have to remember that what was described there would be only surreal to you - to someone from another culture, there would be a different experience.

For example, for an american to be stripped naked and thrown into a room with their parents and siblings, who are also naked would be somewhat embarressing - but in some cultures, it would be as distressing as noticing that it gets dark at night. The saying you're thinking of is "One man's meat is another man's poison".
 
How the hell did 20 guys escape from their? They live in freaking boxes on a military base in Cuba? ***?
 
Again, I am going to say that most of the allegations of abuse need to stop. When prisoners die, or they are losing limbs or other parts, I will begin to be concerned.

These prisoners are going to go home in one piece. How are the Arab's prisoners going home (hint: HEADLESS).
 
^^^^^^^

Of course, mental torture is not torture right? :rolleyes:

The reason this is torture to them is that Muslims and Arabs in general have grevious taboos against touching women other than than their wives. Remember, adultry for them is a crime punishable by death.

Consider yourself in a room, tied down to a chair and then having a nake male give you a lap dance while your family watches. Now take that and multiple it. Thats the shame we are talking about.
 
When prisoners die, or they are losing limbs or other parts, I will begin to be concerned.
There have been at least two deaths of detainees in US care where the cause of death was ruled as homicide by US army doctors, not in guantanamo, but in afghanistan. Abu Grahib has been all over every news channel. The Red Cross and agents of the FBI have both stated publicly that there is torture and abuse taking place in Guantanamo.

I think we're a ways past unsubstantiated allegations at this point.
 
jefnvk said:
Again, I am going to say that most of the allegations of abuse need to stop. When prisoners die, or they are losing limbs or other parts, I will begin to be concerned.
They have.

A quick search turns up this link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/30/iraq/main614905.shtml

Or are you only willing to pay attention if a wrongful death is proven to happen at Gitmo. Of course that would be easier if they'd release the identities of everyone there.
 
I think that in a situation where you are being completely forced, it wouldn't be quite as bad. Would your wife leave you if you went got raped by a guy when you were walking down the street? No. Would she leave you if you were willingly doing it? I hope so. (That is not anti-gay, that is anti-cheating).

As with anything you are forced into, it isn't the same thing as willingly doing it. So regardless of what my religion said, I would not feel like I did anything wrong if I was forced. Not having common sense to acknowledge that, well, that is the prisoners fault.

These tactics aren't exactly ethical, but we are still well under what they are doing to us over there. I think we should play "eye for an eye" with them.
 
I think that in a situation where you are being completely forced, it wouldn't be quite as bad.
Every expert on rehabilitating torture victims would disagree with you. And I'm not sure how it makes it any less a violation of the Geneva Convention, or any less torture, if your family know it was torture and not you coming out of the closet about a heavy-duty S&M llifestyle.
 
All I was stating was I would be able to forgive myself and let my God find me clean by justifying that it was forced. So, it is stupid for the prisoner to have his water shut off and go crazy because he isn't cleansed, therefore he can't pray for strength.

But, in my religion, God doesn't care, but that's a different post.
 
All I was stating was I would be able to forgive myself
But that's why it was so beside the point - the problem with such abuse is not the prisoner being able to forgive himself, but us being able to forgive the abuser.
 
Would you give up your country's military or nuclear secrets if somebody gave you a lap dance?

Didn't think so.

If the interrogators thought this would be a useful technique to break the will of prisoners, there's a reason. In some cases, it seems to have worked. Now, given that most of us wouldn't have been broken by such things, there must be something different between us and the prisoners.

In fact, there is. What we consider erotic--and in some cases, worth paying for--they consider sinful, and scandalous to the point of traumatic. We deliberately inflicted moral, mental, and emotional torment upon them in a form so traumatic (to them) as to cause their resistance to break, inducing them to sell out their countries.

Yes, there is such a thing as mental torture. It's entirely in the perception of the recipient. Just because you don't consider it that bad doesn't mean they don't. I could describe things that would make Art's grandmother turn beet-red here that would disgust you, and me, and most anybody else, but wouldn't cause you any physical harm. Are you volunteering for that treatment?
 
What Standing Wolf said.

We as American's hold ourselves to a higher standard than (for the most part) the rest of the planet. Doing something because a people/country does something, only lowers ourselves to their level.
 
Sounds like a place I visited in Tiajuana.... :eek:

Seriously, it has been proven for years in college studies that the prisoners
are always abused in these unsupervised situations as a sociological rule.

Researchers took a group of American students in a graduate program all knew each other, some friends and split them in half.

Half were jailers and the rest prisoners. They used real cages and were given instructions to guard these prisoners for 10 days.

Very soon after the pseudo incarceration began the jailers began to miserably mistreat the other students, , torture, physical abuse, withholding of food and medicine, overall antisocial behavior for no apparent reason other than some animalistic groupthink mentality. .

The professor had to end the study early because things spiraled out of control very quickly.

I have a strong feeling this is what is happening to these detaineesin gitmo and Iraq

It seems without oversight even the most normal of people can turn into monsters.
 
I realize that there have been deaths. Those are the ones that need to be investigated. But when reports are coming in of women putting on a strip show as 'torture', or the prisoners were forced to stand in 'uncomfortable' positions, I think people are going too far.
 
jsalcedo I saw that movie, iirc it was German.

As for the torture, it's pretty bad. When you resist interrogation, resistance to interrogation, R2I, they use R2I techniques on you. It's mostly American, and Brits come over to train on it. Of course if you are a pilot or SAS they give you a taste of what you may receive if captured, but R2I techniques use a lot of sexual stuff because it breaks guy's minds. SAS officers have opted to stop the training early, and they only have to make 24 hours. Even so each subject being mock R2I tortured is under constant professional psychological observation, they could break a man's mind permanently with only a few days.

For the physical aspects, you start beating them, strip them, chain them, toss them onto a wet concrete floor in a cold room, put a loud radio just out of reach that plays music 24/7, after a couple days a doctor may or may not look at their wounds, and may or may not treat them, back in the cell, bring a bunch of them out, tell two of them to have bum-sex, torture them mercilessly if they refuse, tell two others to have bum-sex, they do it, beat them a little, back into the cell naked on wet floor with music for a few days, and then start asking them questions. It should be emphasized that the female presence is crucial in breaking the psyche. Think Judge Judy, or Dr. Laura, it's just so, so irritating. Howard Stern or Rush Limbaugh are worse for content, but they don't annoy as much. Maybe it's just me.

Anyway, how the hell did 20 people escape Gitmo?

P.S.
Some prisoners did die during 'questioning', lol they brought in the doctors to recuscitate them, then more questioning!

P.P.S.
If this is to be war, then all citizens really ought to know how ugly war is, before they commit others to do the dirty work for them.
 
In fact, there is. What we consider erotic--and in some cases, worth paying for--they consider sinful, and scandalous to the point of traumatic. We deliberately inflicted moral, mental, and emotional torment upon them in a form so traumatic (to them) as to cause their resistance to break, inducing them to sell out their countries.

Funny how those devout Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks managed to fly out to Vegas and buy themselves a weekend's worth of lap-dances and booze a week before the attacks.

Maybe they were training themselves in how to resist such torture in case they were captured by those infidel Americans.
 
Funny how those devout Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks managed to fly out to Vegas and buy themselves a weekend's worth of lap-dances and booze a week before the attacks.

That was debunked. Do some research and you will find that it was not true.
 
it's not ok

I have to take what seems to be the minority account here.
If we are truly fighting for the beliefs and ideals that ALL people are created equal and endowed by God with inalienable rights (not preaching, just quoting), if that's one of the founding principles of our nation, then we are betraying our beloved country when we dehumanize our enemies.

Does it happen? Of course it's going to happen.

But in America, if we are to remain the country I love, it must also follow as a natural consequence, that the torturers deserve to be punished as well.

If we do not hold ourself to our own principles, we have lost all moral ability to hold anyone else to any principles. The dignity of life must be held true for ALL people, or else, as Niesche said, "Once the reality of absolutes is denied, right and wrong become an exercise in force."
 
At the risk of adding gasoline to this flaming discussion, the most enlightening analysis I have seen of this issue was written by our own John Ross and can be found here.
 
the most enlightening analysis I have seen of this
You need to read more, methinks.

Did our actions at Abu Ghraib prison violate the Hague Accords or the Geneva Convention or whatever? Beats me.
If there's a question in your mind as to whether the Geneva Convention prohibits sodomising someone with a lightstick, there's something wrong with your mind, frankly.
 
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