Prisoner Abuse.....details!

[Luckyorwhat]

That seems a little strange, they let them go? Umm, people were saying 'charge them', you know, legally. If they were set free there are 2 reasons, #1 they were harmless and innocent #2 They were followed and led US airstrikes to their boss's headquarters.

As #1 the innocent absolutely incontrovetibly wronged Brits were held for years without charges, I think option #1 is unlikely.

As the ones recaptured were dead, #2 looks likely.

Assuming #3 this article is true.

 

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Wow, psychological pressure on an interrogation subject, imagine that, the horror! <yawn>

No electrodes hooked up to gonads? And this is supposed to be torture?

Geeze, I've put up with worse than this at some jobs I've had.

 

[Luckyorwhat]

Is that why the press is pushing this story? So that the public thinks this is the torture people are referring to? Damn, they don't miss a beat. A month from now people won't remember anything but that prisoners had to strip naked and get lap-dances.

Prisoners are KILLED, REVIVeD, and TORTURED TO DEATH AGAIN.

Why do most kids commit suicide? Because they are made-fun-of! Geese, you can't minimize the effects of psychological anguish. Then it should also be pointed out that the genitals have not been neglected, beatings focusing specifically on the genitals can last hours. No mention of electrodes that I can recall, but current evidence does not suggest they were too sqeamish to use electro-shock.

 

[Firethorn]

Are you basing all this on Abu Graib? I agree that what they did there was inappropriate, however, there are points about legitimate questioning tactics.

Lucky, where's your proof of this? The stuff you described is ACTUAL torture. That is not what's going on. Remember, all sorts of civilian agencies have inspected Gitmo, where the ones suspected enough for us to fly them around the world are kept.

Question Lucky - I really like my internet. If I'm captured and held in a POW camp, is it torture to deprive me of my internet?

From all accounts, Iraqi soldiers taken as POW's were treated just fine. Cases where they weren't are investigated. The vast majority of the ones in question were caught after the end of major combat actions. Comparing situations when they have like three prisoners versus our thousands is not always fair. For example - Do you have proof that we deliberatly delayed treatment of wounds? Remember triage? Where they decide who needs treatment first?

Why do most kids commit suicide? Because they are made-fun-of!

This just goes to show, different people break at different things. And I kinda disagree with "being made fun of" as the major cause. And on the other hand, there's always the teen who had an accident up in the mountains, his hand became trapped, and he cut it off with a knife to get back to civilization. Are you seriously equating terrorists as being as fragile as depressed kids?

 

[Derius_T]

Luckyorwhat:

Prisoners are KILLED, REVIVeD, and TORTURED TO DEATH AGAIN

Care to provide any solid PROOF of this? I have proof they got lap dances and dog leashes, but I didn't see any missing body parts????

And if you disagree so vehemently about their treatment, why don't you go apply for a job taking care of them? Get a little first hand look at these 'innocent' people who are being sooooo abused. Take off their restraints, make 'em play nicey-nicey. Anyone want to place a wager on how fast you die?

 

[DRZinn]

Shame Is Not Torture.

 

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Prisoners are KILLED, REVIVeD, and TORTURED TO DEATH AGAIN.

Somehow I doubt that US Forces are able to raise the dead. They're pretty good at the reverse process though

Why do most kids commit suicide? Because they are made-fun-of! Geese, you can't minimize the effects of psychological anguish.

Boo hoo, the poor Al-Queda mass murderer wannabe was taunted about his high water pants and was not allowed to sit at the lunch table with the cool kids.

Then it should also be pointed out that the genitals have not been neglected, beatings focusing specifically on the genitals can last hours. No mention of electrodes that I can recall, but current evidence does not suggest they were too sqeamish to use electro-shock.

Your assertions to the contrary, there is no evidence whatsoever that US Forces have used electro-shock or any other technique that even barely meets the definition of torture.

Playground taunts and lap dances are not torture techniques.

 

[Sparks]

there are points about legitimate questioning tactics.

To belabour a point, there are two possible statuses for Guantanamo detainees - civilian suspects under arrest, and PoWs. If the former, then questioning is legal, but several rights are being denied such as the right to legal representation, and torture of any kind is not legal; if the latter, then no questioning is legal and several rights are being denied such as the right to not be photographed in a humiliating manner, the right to not be tortured, and so on.
Either way, questioning of the form that has taken place and is taking place, is just not legal under US law, the uniform code of military justice, or the geneva conventions.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Times are tough. Let's face it -- the early 21st century is not a good time to be a terrorist against the United States. (Late 20th century was much better.)

 

[Luckyorwhat]

Ok then, I guess I'll have to get researching to find all the articles which detailed the abuses. Fair enough to ask for evidence, can't complain there.

I would suggest you take a side, though. Everyone says 'I support our soldiers! I support them!'

Well it's crunch time. Do you support torture, or do you support your soldiers? You CANNOT support both. IF you torture enemy soldiers, then YOUR soldiers WILL be tortured when they are captured.

Make a call, support your troops or support torture. You honestly can't have it both ways.

And I'll look into those sources.

But seriously think about it, it's one thing to say 'they're just questioning techinques' - it's another thing to be condemning your own sons to those same techniques, and worse.

BTW I wish I could swear, but WHAT kind of useful intel are you going to get torturing a prisoner 3 years after he was captured? They already showed that most made stuff up just to end the pain the first time they were tortured. 3 years later?! They were holding out for 1200 days? IIRC 3 days and your intel is useless, soldiers just have to hold out until their info is not timely.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Well it's crunch time. Do you support torture, or do you support your soldiers?

The question presumes torture is happening, which has not been established or proven.

 

[Firethorn]

Lucky, I am one of those soldiers. Or at least Airman.

Actually, we can question POW's all we want. We just can't try to force them to answer. It's much like questioning a suspect of a crime.

As for the three years thing, many of their operations take years. Also, getting more information about who's in these terrorist networks is always good. It's not like Osama is a new figure in the terrorist world. It's not like anybody on the news is new in the terrorist world. And as far as I know, we're still shipping new prisoners to Gitmo.

Now I will say that I find it somewhat disturbing that no determination of the status of many of these prisoners has been made, but I do think that it's a difficult proposition. We know that most of them are still dangerous if we let them go, but how often we don't have enough evidence to convict them "beyond a reasonable doubt".

 

[Henry Bowman]

it's another thing to be condemning your own sons to those same techniques

Like a strip show??? Arguing that beheading with a dull saw is equivalent (or even in the same universe) will not be convincing.

 

[Derius_T]

LuckyorWhat:

I would suggest you take a side, though.

I've already taken a side. Its the US against terrorism.

Well it's crunch time. Do you support torture, or do you support your soldiers? You CANNOT support both.

That statement can't be answered until you PROVE that torture is happening. And in my book, no matter how you word it, lapdances, naked women rubbing on me, and live porn just can't be torture.

But seriously think about it, it's one thing to say 'they're just questioning techinques' - it's another thing to be condemning your own sons to those same techniques, and worse.

I have family members that hope and pray that if they get captured that they will get the same 'torture'. Unfortunately, for our soldiers, it will be much, much worse.....

 

[Luckyorwhat]

Damn, it already worked! I swear those press guys are geniuses. The public already has forgotten what happened and replaced it with being stripped naked and getting lap dances from chicks in thongs. It's upsetting, but it makes me smile it's just so well executed!

You have to understand that a LOT of officers are rather upset by this. They actually take codes of honour very seriously, this does not sit well with them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1211351,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43783-2004May20.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1378206,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1399411,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3759923.stm
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1895398
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1223180,00.html


"The scandal at Abu Ghraib prison was first exposed not by a digital photograph but by a letter. In December 2003, a woman prisoner inside the jail west of Baghdad managed to smuggle out a note. Its contents were so shocking that, at first, Amal Kadham Swadi and the other Iraqi women lawyers who had been trying to gain access to the US jail found them hard to believe.
The note claimed that US guards had been raping women detainees, who were, and are, in a small minority at Abu Ghraib. Several of the women were now pregnant, it added. The women had been forced to strip naked in front of men, it said. The note urged the Iraqi resistance to bomb the jail to spare the women further shame."

"Kaus says the photographs should never have been shown to the public because they will incite violence against Americans."

"I've read reports from capturing units where the capturing unit wrote, "the target was not at home. The neighbour came out to see what was going on and we grabbed him,"

"A military lawyer involved in the investigation into the Abu Ghraib prison scandal testified that the commander of coalition forces in Iraq, General Ricardo Sanchez, was present at some prisoner interrogations at the jail and witnessed some of the abuse, it was reported yesterday."

"Of the Iraqi images, the most chilling was the hooded man standing on a box, with wires attached to him. He was reportedly told he would be electrocuted if he moved. According to the CIA manual, threatening him with electrocution may have been better than the real thing: "The threat of coercion usually weakens or destroys resistance more effectively than coercion itself. For example, the threat to inflict pain can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain." However, "if a subject refuses to comply after a threat has been made, it must be carried out. Otherwise, subsequent threats will also prove ineffective."

"Some said they were pressed to denounce Islam or were force-fed pork and liquor. Many provided graphic details of how they were sexually humiliated and assaulted, threatened with rape, and forced to masturbate in front of female soldiers."

"Hilas also said he witnessed an Army translator having sex with a boy at the prison. He said the boy was between 15 and 18 years old. Someone hung sheets to block the view, but Hilas said he heard the boy's screams and climbed a door to get a better look. Hilas said he watched the assault and told investigators that it was documented by a female soldier taking pictures. "

"Graner was sodomizing him with the phosphoric light, Mustafa said. The detainee "was screaming for help. There was another tall white man who was with Graner -- he was helping him. There was also a white female soldier, short, she was taking pictures."

"He also said Graner repeatedly threw the detainees' meals into the toilets and said, "Eat it."

"At Camp Whitehorse near Nasiriya, guards were allegedly told to prepare prisoners for interrogation by keeping them in hoods in temperatures of up to 49C degrees (120F) for 50 minutes at a time over periods of 10 hours. One Iraqi detainee choked to death.

At a camp near Qaim, interrogators allegedly stuffed an Iraqi general into a sleeping bag, sat on his chest and covered his mouth. Maj Gen Abed Hamed Mowhoush, who had also been questioned by CIA operatives, eventually died."



Oh, here are a few pictures that one stupid, really stupid British soldier gave to his neighbourhood photo-lab to develop.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,1393803,00.html

 

[gc70]

I knew there was some reason that I was not shedding tears over the image of the ever-virtuous Muslims being 'tortured' to total mental breakdown by sexual provocation.

MrTuffPaws
The reason this is torture to them is that Muslims and Arabs in general have grevious taboos against touching women other than than their wives. Remember, adultry for them is a crime punishable by death.

Let's take a fuller look at the extreme sexual morality of Muslims.

Adultery is a crime often punishable by stoning to death under Sharia law. Of course, it is tough to find 4 male Muslim eyewitness to the actual act of penetration as is required to get a conviction. So there does not seem to be much adultery in the Muslim world, unless somebody wants to make a confession. (One of 4,520 Google results for "sharia +zina")

Speaking of adultery confessions, a woman's accusation of rape is accepted as a confession of adultery if she can not produce the required number of eyewitnesses to prove her rape charge. So there does not seem to be much rape in the Muslim world, either, unless the guy wants to confess. (One of 46,300 Google results for "sharia +rape")

Of course, Muslim men also have a nifty method of letting off steam so they will not be tempted into adultery or rape - it is called mutah, or temporary marriage. Mutah may be officially frowned upon, but there is even a Mutah website to help good Muslims on their way. It all boils down to how long the couple will be 'married' and the mahr, or gift, that the husband will give to his new wife. (See Misconception #9) Does "how about a hundred for the night" have a familiar ring?

I do not mean to suggest that all Muslim men are sex fanatics. Indeed, Islam advocates sexual restraint, just as Christianity does. However, the high hurdle of Sharia law functionally gives license to even hideous sexual misconduct. A grievous sexual taboo without any real enforcement is no more than words without meaning. In such circumstances, I do not believe that the average Muslim man is substantially more sexually restrained, even though probably more circumspect, than the average Christian man. And if a lap-dance doesn't drive the average Baptist into the psychological abyss, I don't think it will do so to the average Muslim.

 

[Sparks]

And if you tied Billy Graham to a chair and smeared his face with menstrual blood, you're saying it wouldn't bother him at all?
Besides, there are far more serious charges out there than the "mere" mental anguish ones. Things like waterboarding, the tortures noted in the post above, beatings in Guantanamo that were captured on video, and so on.

 

[gc70]

I respect serious and substantiated reports of physical torture, which is patently unacceptable. But the howling chorus that labels sexual provocation as life-shattering, mind-breaking torture makes me want to chuckle.

As I have said before, send all but a handful of the detainees home, but shoot them the next time they are encountered with a weapon. For the handful of really valuable sources of intelligence - well, we don't know anything about them because they don't really exist, do they?

 

[Derius_T]

Sad really. Man, I bet the vast majority of REGULAR OLD PRISONERS right here in the UNITED STATES sure wish the BEATINGS and SEXUAL ASSAULT they suffer were "SIMULATED" like they were with those poor detainees......

 

[R.H. Lee]

Besides, there are far more serious charges out there than the "mere" mental anguish ones. Things like waterboarding, the tortures noted in the post above, beatings in Guantanamo that were captured on video, and so on.

Maybe Ireland would like to take on international terrorism. You can show us how it should be done.

 

[Derius_T]

Sparks wrote:

And if you tied Billy Graham to a chair and smeared his face with menstrual blood, you're saying it wouldn't bother him at all?

What I'm saying is, that if your FAITH in your GOD is not strong enough to resist a little fake blood, and some boobs in your face, then maybe religion is not your thing. Maybe you should take up a new hobby? I'm nowhere near as 'spiritual' as Billy Graham, but I'd like to think that MY FAITH is strong enough to resist such weak attempts. Besides, my GOD, would never hold me accountable for things I was FORCED to do.

 

[Sparks]

Maybe Ireland would like to take on international terrorism. You can show us how it should be done.

Thought we were doing so. The peace process up north may be slow, painful and messy, but on the other hand, no bombings for the past decade, no open warfare in the streets, no thousand-pound bombs going off in canary warf... well, you get the idea. It's not easy, it's not quick, it's not clean, but it does last.

Besides, my GOD, would never hold me accountable for things I was FORCED to do.

Religion's a funny thing in what it demands though. Some religions won't permit blood transfusions, some won't permit sex without an offical sanction from a third party, some demand that you eat your parent's flesh after they die - thing is, I've yet to meet a law of physics that points out one of the thousand or so religions in the world and says "yup, that's the one". So you can't actually say "this religion is better than this one", not with any degree of credibility in an independent observer's eyes anyway. So what your god says is not sufficent legal grounds to permit you to abuse another person.

 

[Art Eatman]

I guess that's enough drifting. Thanks for the lack of flames...

, Art