A few general questions

[yzguy]

I just got my reloading stuff, and am making sure I understand this all before I get started with doing it with powder and primers (I did a couple with just cases and bullets).

I am going by the RCBS instructions listed here:
http://www.rcbs.com/guide/printsteps.html

in step 10 (Expand the Case Mouth) the instructions say "The expander should be adjusted so the case mouth is belled outward just enough to accept the new bullet." Can anyone elaborate on that? I mean should it be expanded so far that the back of a new bullet will fit completely in side? I tried a couple of different amounts, and I could seat a bullet fine when the bell was just a little smaller (I mean a little) then the rear of the bullet, is that ok, or is there a risk of the bullet not seating straight?

in step 19 (Bullet Seating) the instructions say " Turn the die body down until it stops. The crimp shoulder in the die is now pressing against the top of the case mouth. Back the die out one turn, raising the crimp shoulder above the case mouth." Is this a typo? I mean I would expect to turn the die IN one turn, so it could crimp the end of the case, if I turn it BACK a turn, how is it getting crimped? I mean wouldn't the bell still be on the case if I backed it out a turn? It seems it would get no crimp at all, because nothing is touching the empty case.

 

[P95Carry]

The case mouth deal .... well, depending on the brass, bullet type etc ....... my rule would .. the minimum sufficient to allow bullet entry. A good test for me is with a certain amount of belling ... hold belled case in one hand and bullet in other .... if you can ''engage'' bullet, even a few thou ..... that'll do for me.

Misalighnment is not that common IMo .. cos the die pretty much maintains a true lining up of bullet. main risk with inadequate belling is . shaving a lead bullet and/or .. squishing down part of the brass. Experiment and find you minimum.

The other deal ... with crimp ..... yep, I too would advance (down) by a small amount . adjusting the bullet seating stop above to compensate and maintain correct seating depth. Again ... experiment ... until results to your liking. Expect to maybe have a few rounds to ''shoot off'' due to slight changes as you ''get it right''.

Just my 0.02

 

[Mal H]

I agree with P95Carry on the belling procedure.

As for the seating die adjustment, you don't say which caliber you're loading. The RCBS site is describing seating without crimping as you would do with most bottle neck cases. Note that they are showing rifle cases in the photos.

By your question, I assume you want to crimp your cases. You are correct that the crimping lip in the die would have to go down a little bit further after the die touches the case mouth. How much is hard to say without knowing the caliber and crimp type (taper or roll). The best method is to crimp a little and go from there, i.e., screw the die in further for more crimp, out for less.

Personally, I like to seat and crimp in two different operations. Seat as they describe and then back out the seater plug a good way and lower the seating die to crimp the batch of cartridges. I get less variations in seating depth, crimp, and especially fewer bulged cases (none, that is). When you seat and crimp in one operation, the bullet is trying to go in the last few thousandths while the crimping die is squeezing it tighter in the mouth. With thin walled cases like some .45 Colt's, for example, you'll get ringed or bulged cases for sure.

 

[Thirties]

"in step 19 (Bullet Seating) the instructions say " Turn the die body down until it stops. The crimp shoulder in the die is now pressing against the top of the case mouth. Back the die out one turn, raising the crimp shoulder above the case mouth." Is this a typo? I mean I would expect to turn the die IN one turn, so it could crimp the end of the case, if I turn it BACK a turn, how is it getting crimped? I mean wouldn't the bell still be on the case if I backed it out a turn? It seems it would get no crimp at all, because nothing is touching the empty case."

above is quoted from your message


Guy,

At the beginning of this quote is the phrase "Bullet Seating". The instructions are correct with no typos. This is the process for bullet seating -- NOT case crimping! You seat the bullet first, then the case gets crimped, even if you will be crimping with the same seater die.

You can crimp either with the seater die, or with a separate crimping die employed after the seater die.

You may have figured this out already, but the bullet seating die also may be used to perform a crimp once the bullet is seated. It has two 'jobs". By adjusting the die with the crimping part "high" you seat the bullet only and the case mouth remains belled.

When you turn the die lower the die seats the bullet, and then crimps the case mouth at the end of the handle's downstroke.

If you think about it, you cannot be seating a bullet into a case which has already been crimped. So the procedure quoted above is to back off the crimp (accomplished by backing off the die "body"); then you adjust the seating depth of the bullet using the de seating "insert" (the screw at the top of the die).

If you will be crimping on the seater die, the die body is turned down to perform an appropriate crimp. There are two ways to make sure your seating depth and crimp are good in the final setting:

One way is to use loaded ammo as a "model" and adjust the seating die on to the inserted round by hand tightening the seater screw, but not all the way. You then turn down the crimp (die body) x-part of a turn, and the bullet seater follows down to the correct position. [This is generally the Lee method from their book]

Another way is explained very well in the Speer Loading Manual no. 13 (published by RCBS). In a world of very bad writers and editors, RCBS has got a decent set of instructions in their Speer Manual for seting up your dies. It is a must read, really -- much better than the instructions that came with my Lyman, Redding and Hornady die sets.

Still confused? Keep asking questions. I'm very new at this (5 weeks), and I understand how confusing it can be when you don't have a knowledgable friend in the neighborhood to help you (my case).

 

[Quantrill]

I would like to add a little about the belling of the case mouth. It makes a difference here whether we are talking lead (cast, swaged, whatever) or jacketed (ball, JHP etc). When belling for lead bullets, most often done for pistol cartridges but certainly not unheard of for rifle, the mouth should be belled sufficiently to begin seating the bullet WITHOUT scraping the lead. It does not have to fit all the way into the case but should start and when the bullet is finished being seated, there should be no lead at the mouth that has been scraped from the bullet.
In dealing with jacketed bullets, I have found that there should be the slightest resistance when pushing the bullet into the mouth. My 2 cents Quantrill

 

[BigG]

It sounds like you are reading general directions that pertain to certain dies and not others.

1. You only bell the mouth of a straight walled case. The belling should be just enough so you can feel the enlargement as you run your fingertips over the case. In other words, not much.

2. When you seat a bullet, the die should be adjusted so the crimping part is above the end of the case. Work on getting the overall length correct before you set the crimp, if any. The act of seating the bullet will squeeze the belling down to normal case diameter if the case was belled.

3. If you want to apply a crimp to a rimmed pistol cartridge, back out the bullet seating punch by the same amount that you tighten the die body into the press. That way your overall length will remain the same.

4. Bottleneck dies do not bell the cartridge case mouth.

 

[yzguy]

opps forgot to mention, I am talking about .45 and 9mm for the opening of the case mouth, and add in .308 for crimping (because you don't bell the .308 right??). Also will probably all be jacketed bullets. (also for the .308 I am primarily concerned with accuracy, for the pistols not as much so... )

Upon further reading of the spear manual, it looks like you only crimp bullets with a crimping groove. But even for the .45 and 9mm don't you have to do something to get rid of the bell at the mouth of the case?

and weather I want to crimp or not... I have no idea.... should I?? I just thought you had to do something to get rid of the bell on the case....

Any advantage of crimping (taper or roll) for .45 9mm or .308?? would the different crimps take different dies?

ok, I think I understand the crimping thing now... I just thought I had to do something about the bell...

so If I have this correct, if I'm loading fmj, and only bell a little (for pistol), I don't have to do anything more than seat the bullet, right?

 

[Mal H]

No, your first instinct was correct - you do have to do something about the bell, no matter how slight it is. If you don't, the cartridge will not chamber easily. You have to crimp the handgun cases which will take care of the belled case mouth. Usually a short taper crimp for the calibers you mentioned will suffice.

Most bottlenecked cases, like your .308, as you said will not be belled, so a crimp is not necessary for them.

 

[P95Carry]

it looks like you only crimp bullets with a crimping groove

Leaving aside crimps on lead .. in fact use of something like the Lee ''Factory Crimp'' you can apply a very good crimp safely onto plain sided jackets.

Personally it's a die I'd recommend .. for rifle in particular.

 

[yzguy]

right now I have RCBS dies for .45 and .308, the 9mm dies are Lee.

so basicaly for 9mm and 45, I just barely crimp it (to get rid of the bell) right?

 

[Mal H]

Right. Any more than around 1/16th inch is too much.