Rugerdaddy
Member
Thanks, EdLaver
That's a good thread. I got a lot out of it. I appreciate the tip.
That's a good thread. I got a lot out of it. I appreciate the tip.
A Light on My Self Defense Weapon?
- Thread starter Rugerdaddy
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Titan6
member
Better to have one and not need it than to not have it and start wishing for one when you do.....
There really are no good reasons not to have a light on your home HD long gun. You can not rely on the electricity (and lights) to be on when you need it because the 1% of the time that it is off will be the time you really need to see what is going on. Crime also goes up when all of the lights are off and police response time is longer as well.
If you don't want to put a light on your weapon and really want to use a flashlight get a headlamp. I have one that is useful for hog hunting and climbing into the tree stand at 0 dark 30. It has a multi bright LED and a red low light LED switch. You don't have to use your hands and it tracks your head movements automatically.
Of course it also changes the BGs point of aim from your center of mass to your head which has it's upsides and downsides as well...
There really are no good reasons not to have a light on your home HD long gun. You can not rely on the electricity (and lights) to be on when you need it because the 1% of the time that it is off will be the time you really need to see what is going on. Crime also goes up when all of the lights are off and police response time is longer as well.
If you don't want to put a light on your weapon and really want to use a flashlight get a headlamp. I have one that is useful for hog hunting and climbing into the tree stand at 0 dark 30. It has a multi bright LED and a red low light LED switch. You don't have to use your hands and it tracks your head movements automatically.
Of course it also changes the BGs point of aim from your center of mass to your head which has it's upsides and downsides as well...
bogie
Member
My shotgun has an X10 light. It takes care of the whole house.
fastbolt
Member
Owning a baseball bat generally doesn't make someone a skilled ball player ...
Owning a musical instrument generally doesn't make someone a musician ...
Owning a light source that attaches to a weapon generally won't imbue someone with the necessary skills and knowledge of the appropriate employment of the attached light ...
FWIW, I've seen ordinary folks suddenly unable to properly and effectively use an ordinary flashlight when subjected to unexpected stressful situations.
Training can be a good thing. Proper training can be even better.
There's a concept called "Low Frequency/High Risk" discussed in some risk management training. Forgive me if I paraphrase and oversimplify things, but think of it from the perspective of time-compressed, high liability situations which don't occur very often and which are often neglected when it comes to preparation and suitable training beforehand.
Having to suddenly come up with the right decision and action under the duress of such an infrequent situation may not result in the best reaction to the circumstances. Not the best way to mitigate, or attempt to minimize exposure to, potential liability from a risk management perspective.
The other instances, such as "High Frequency/Low risk", "Low Frequency/Low Risk" & "High frequency/High Risk" may arguably have potentially less risky outcomes.
Why?
"High Frequency/Low risk" - Non risky things we do every day and for which we're often experienced, well versed and knowledgeable. Probably not very stressful for reasons of low risk and frequent occurrence. Practiced, successful decision-making experience to fall back upon.
"Low Frequency/Low Risk" - Things we don't do every day, but which are of low risk. Probably less stress involved for many folks. No dire consequences if we make the wrong decision. Choose something we discover we dislike on a new luncheon menu and the world won’t stop revolving.
"High frequency/High Risk" - Risky things for which we're trained and well-versed. Situations and circumstances which we may anticipate and/or expect to occur on a frequent basis, and/or which we may do with high frequency, at least in training, remaining properly trained and currently experienced. Proper preparation, training and even actual experience may hopefully reduce the potential for confusion during actual situations, as well as inappropriate responses and actions.
Yeah, it's dangerous, but we frequently train for it, anticipate it and may even have experienced the actual event with some frequency, so it's also something which isn't as likely to 'surprise' us. Hence, our decision-making skills under stress will hopefully remain sufficiently current and appropriate to the tasks.
Now, which of those situational descriptions do you think might most closely describe someone without training attempting to employ a weapon-mounted light in a residential structure during a potentially life-threatening situation?
With individual responsibility for determining a course of action comes the very real potential for facing the consequences of that action ...
These sorts of decisions might arguably require some careful research and thought before implementation. Then, there's that proper training issue, as well. Trying to remember advice gleaned from the internet during the midst of an unexpected stressful, potentially life threatening situation isn't likely to go as well as someone might wish.
Not everyone is likely to agree on everything and that's not uncommon.
Even if a decision is made in favor of a weapon-mounted light within a certain situation or circumstances, there's the consideration of the type of equipment, especially regarding its operation and function.
Now, admittedly, I'm fortunate in that my job permits me access to a wide range of equipment which I can try out at the expense of my agency, someone else's agency, or a manufacturer/vendor evaluation sample. I've certainly tried some light equipment for which I'd never spend my own money.
Trying various equipment out during a classroom venue can be helpful before you spend hard-earned money on something. It might also help you determine whether a weapon-mounted light is even something for which you might have an appropriate use. Helps to find out beforehand if the presence of the added equipment adversely affects the functioning of the weapon in the hands of the particular user/owner, too.
Picture this situation ....
Suddenly illuminating something/someone which should not be fired upon (deadly force) - with a weapon-mounted light source - under the accumulating physical & mental stress of a perceived life-threatening situation (which may or may not exist, in the final result). Now, being startled by anything at this point can be a very, very dangerous situation for all concerned.
The potential adverse results of 'hand/finger confusion' can potentially be most unwanted and unfortunate.
Just my own thoughts, and I'm certainly nobody's expert ...
Owning a musical instrument generally doesn't make someone a musician ...
Owning a light source that attaches to a weapon generally won't imbue someone with the necessary skills and knowledge of the appropriate employment of the attached light ...
FWIW, I've seen ordinary folks suddenly unable to properly and effectively use an ordinary flashlight when subjected to unexpected stressful situations.
Training can be a good thing. Proper training can be even better.
There's a concept called "Low Frequency/High Risk" discussed in some risk management training. Forgive me if I paraphrase and oversimplify things, but think of it from the perspective of time-compressed, high liability situations which don't occur very often and which are often neglected when it comes to preparation and suitable training beforehand.
Having to suddenly come up with the right decision and action under the duress of such an infrequent situation may not result in the best reaction to the circumstances. Not the best way to mitigate, or attempt to minimize exposure to, potential liability from a risk management perspective.
The other instances, such as "High Frequency/Low risk", "Low Frequency/Low Risk" & "High frequency/High Risk" may arguably have potentially less risky outcomes.
Why?
"High Frequency/Low risk" - Non risky things we do every day and for which we're often experienced, well versed and knowledgeable. Probably not very stressful for reasons of low risk and frequent occurrence. Practiced, successful decision-making experience to fall back upon.
"Low Frequency/Low Risk" - Things we don't do every day, but which are of low risk. Probably less stress involved for many folks. No dire consequences if we make the wrong decision. Choose something we discover we dislike on a new luncheon menu and the world won’t stop revolving.
"High frequency/High Risk" - Risky things for which we're trained and well-versed. Situations and circumstances which we may anticipate and/or expect to occur on a frequent basis, and/or which we may do with high frequency, at least in training, remaining properly trained and currently experienced. Proper preparation, training and even actual experience may hopefully reduce the potential for confusion during actual situations, as well as inappropriate responses and actions.
Yeah, it's dangerous, but we frequently train for it, anticipate it and may even have experienced the actual event with some frequency, so it's also something which isn't as likely to 'surprise' us. Hence, our decision-making skills under stress will hopefully remain sufficiently current and appropriate to the tasks.
Now, which of those situational descriptions do you think might most closely describe someone without training attempting to employ a weapon-mounted light in a residential structure during a potentially life-threatening situation?
With individual responsibility for determining a course of action comes the very real potential for facing the consequences of that action ...
These sorts of decisions might arguably require some careful research and thought before implementation. Then, there's that proper training issue, as well. Trying to remember advice gleaned from the internet during the midst of an unexpected stressful, potentially life threatening situation isn't likely to go as well as someone might wish.
Not everyone is likely to agree on everything and that's not uncommon.
Even if a decision is made in favor of a weapon-mounted light within a certain situation or circumstances, there's the consideration of the type of equipment, especially regarding its operation and function.
Now, admittedly, I'm fortunate in that my job permits me access to a wide range of equipment which I can try out at the expense of my agency, someone else's agency, or a manufacturer/vendor evaluation sample. I've certainly tried some light equipment for which I'd never spend my own money.
Trying various equipment out during a classroom venue can be helpful before you spend hard-earned money on something. It might also help you determine whether a weapon-mounted light is even something for which you might have an appropriate use. Helps to find out beforehand if the presence of the added equipment adversely affects the functioning of the weapon in the hands of the particular user/owner, too.
Picture this situation ....
Suddenly illuminating something/someone which should not be fired upon (deadly force) - with a weapon-mounted light source - under the accumulating physical & mental stress of a perceived life-threatening situation (which may or may not exist, in the final result). Now, being startled by anything at this point can be a very, very dangerous situation for all concerned.
The potential adverse results of 'hand/finger confusion' can potentially be most unwanted and unfortunate.
Just my own thoughts, and I'm certainly nobody's expert ...
I recently had a fairly high ranking marine who has seen combat over the past several years give me his opinion on lights. "I didn't think much of them until I went through "blank" training. What really sold me on them was when we had to play the role of bad guy being on the receiving end."
The question would be if you would know when & how to use it. The marine has the benefit of a whole program to work out the tactics & which which lights are effective, reliable etc. Like someone said it has an off switch if you don't want it.
I know a lot of gun forum posts get the answer: "What you really need to do is get some training" but sometimes it is true.
Later,
WNTFW
The question would be if you would know when & how to use it. The marine has the benefit of a whole program to work out the tactics & which which lights are effective, reliable etc. Like someone said it has an off switch if you don't want it.
I know a lot of gun forum posts get the answer: "What you really need to do is get some training" but sometimes it is true.
Later,
WNTFW
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Rugerdaddy
Member
fastbolt and WNTFW, I believe your points are extremely important. As such, I am looking into some kind of pistol home defense course. One can't say enough about the value of training.
I don't even want to THINK about that!
Titan6 said:
I don't even want to THINK about that!Havegunjoe
Member
What do you think the chances are.....
When you enter a room in search of a BG with a light on your gun that you hit them square in the eyes first time so as to instantly blind them? Slim, at best. I have never understood the fascination with flash lights. It's a big arrow pointing to you in the dark. If I hear a noise I reasonably believe is an intruder I hunker down in my bedroom, call LE, and announce to the BG he better hit the road as I have a gun, and the cops are on the way. If it is someone that is not a threat I would think they would announce that fact to me at that time. Most of my family and friends know better than to walk into my home unannounced. I keep doors and windows locked and my two chocolate labs would warn me if they even got close to my home.
When you enter a room in search of a BG with a light on your gun that you hit them square in the eyes first time so as to instantly blind them? Slim, at best. I have never understood the fascination with flash lights. It's a big arrow pointing to you in the dark. If I hear a noise I reasonably believe is an intruder I hunker down in my bedroom, call LE, and announce to the BG he better hit the road as I have a gun, and the cops are on the way. If it is someone that is not a threat I would think they would announce that fact to me at that time. Most of my family and friends know better than to walk into my home unannounced. I keep doors and windows locked and my two chocolate labs would warn me if they even got close to my home.
I would never announce I have a gun and give away my tactical advantage. I never understood that...if a guy is going to come into my bedroom Im certainly not going to warn him of my current possible uperhand in the situation. As far as the light...rather have light and two ands on my gun than only one..multitasking more than needed is never a great idea in an intense situation IMO. Carry an extra flashlight so you have a choice...seems simple enough to me.
As an option to needing a flashlight I keep some of the 5 minute "hi intensity" glow lights by my bedside. You can crack it open with the package sealed, shake, then rip and throw where you want it. I would throw several since they do not have a 100% reliablility rate.
They are also handy to have on a key ring if you have to throw it out to the cops so they can get in without kicking down the door.
This is only an option, I have 2 surefire lights by the bed as well, and recently recieved the mounts to put a light on my Mossberg.
NukemJim
They are also handy to have on a key ring if you have to throw it out to the cops so they can get in without kicking down the door.
This is only an option, I have 2 surefire lights by the bed as well, and recently recieved the mounts to put a light on my Mossberg.
NukemJim
vanilla_gorilla
Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2006
- Messages
- 360
Could just make sense to me to see what is in my house in the dark.
Then again, I don't call 911 when I hear noises. Where I live, it's likely that there are all of 2 deputies working to respond to your 0400 911 call, and they may be 15-20 minutes away. Being able to handle things yourself is not only prudent and smart, it may be downright essential.
murphyslaw84
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
- 6
I recently read in the local paper that a guy heard a noise at night, grabbed his handgun, and saw someone in the dark and shot. It was his daughter he shot in the chest. Luckily, they said she was stable and okay. I imagine she "snuck out" and he thought she was in bed asleep. Food for thought.
Gocart
Member
Exactly. Target identification is possible the most crucial function of a hand held or weapon-mounted light.
And that, right there, is why I have grave concerns about the desireability of a weapon-mounted light for most normal people.
Hanging a light off the end of your defense gun does not turn your gun into a flashlight. It turns it into a deadly weapon with a light attached to it.
By definition, if you perceive that the purpose of the gun-mounted light is to identify your target, you are going to deliberately point your loaded, deadly weapon at people whom you have not yet identified. Or you'll use it to "clear the house," waving your gun muzzle around the house, pointing at flimsy interior walls through which a bullet could easily pass (and behind which your loved ones are sleeping), while looking for a legitimate target. And you'll be doing all that under high stress, with all the attendant risks that entails.
If you've had enough training to realize that the light on your gun isn't a target identification tool but is instead an aiming tool, I have no real heartburn with it.
But most people just don't seem to be that bright ...
Keep the target-identification flashlight with your gun, not on it.
pax
ShackleMeNot
Member
You do not need to point your weapon mounted light directly at a threat to use it for target identification. Most modern high intensity lights output a cone of light that is bright enough to use for this purpose at the edge of the light ring without needing to use the center of the beam. You may be pointing a gun near someone but not at them.
I recommend carrying a hand held light in addition to a weapon mounted light because neither tool will do 100% of the job of the other.
I recommend carrying a hand held light in addition to a weapon mounted light because neither tool will do 100% of the job of the other.
ShackleMeNot
Member
I'm sorry Pax, I don't understand your question in the context of weapon mounted lights and target ID. I don't see how a handheld light would help with loved ones in adjoining rooms. If anything a weapon mounted light makes marksmanship and gun handling much easier leading to a higher probability of good hits.
I think pax is saying that with a hand held light you aren't pointing your weapon at anything/anyone you don't want to shoot i.e. the loved ones in the adjoining room.
pax, how do you carry your weapon when you clear a room, low ready? If you are carrying your weapon at any ready position besides indoor ready or low ready, you are probably going to sweep something you don't intend to shoot while you are searching with the hand held light.
Jeff
pax, how do you carry your weapon when you clear a room, low ready? If you are carrying your weapon at any ready position besides indoor ready or low ready, you are probably going to sweep something you don't intend to shoot while you are searching with the hand held light.
Jeff
Jeff's got it -- if you are using the weapon-mounted light to search a room, you are painting all of the walls with the muzzle of your firearm. If you're using the weapon-mounted light to "splash" light onto an unidentified human who might be a target, you are pointing the weapon ... where? At a wall behind which your family may be sleeping? ... at his accomplice, standing next to him? ... at an open window?
The problem isn't the light, exactly. The problem is the mindset that goes with it becomes very cavalier about where that muzzle is pointing.
As long as the mindset remains that the weapon-mounted light is an aid to aiming rather than a target identification tool, I have no real heartburn with it. As soon as folks start arguing that it's necessary for target identification, I begin to suspect that they haven't got the right mindset about muzzle control.
And the comment about Force-on-Force was simply because it's a lot harder to "just splash" a non-identified target than most folks seem to think, if you are serious about never pointing the gun at anyone you haven't identified nor at any flimsy interior walls which won't stop bullets.
Jeff ~
Sul downstairs, Sabrina upstairs.
Different thread!
pax
The problem isn't the light, exactly. The problem is the mindset that goes with it becomes very cavalier about where that muzzle is pointing.
As long as the mindset remains that the weapon-mounted light is an aid to aiming rather than a target identification tool, I have no real heartburn with it. As soon as folks start arguing that it's necessary for target identification, I begin to suspect that they haven't got the right mindset about muzzle control.
And the comment about Force-on-Force was simply because it's a lot harder to "just splash" a non-identified target than most folks seem to think, if you are serious about never pointing the gun at anyone you haven't identified nor at any flimsy interior walls which won't stop bullets.
Jeff ~
Sul downstairs, Sabrina upstairs.
Different thread!
pax
Gocart
Member
If I'm clearing a room with or without a flashlight, I've accepted the fact that I'm probably going to sweep everyone in my section of the room except my partners or teammates. Sweeping them is not the same as shooting them. That's why we insist on trigger finger discipline. If there was not a credible threat of danger, we wouldn't be clearing the room to start with.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Well . . . that's an interesting bunch of statements.
If you're OK with sweeping everyone in the room except your partners and teammates, why put forth the extra effort to avoid them? Why not just sweep them too?
How do you think someone there might feel about that? More bluntly, how would you feel sitting there and I swept you? Or, if I pointed the gun your way to hold the light on you while I determined your intentions, which might take more than a "sweep"?
Hell, forget the light. If I promised to keep my finger off the trigger, would you feel comfortable were I to hold my cocked and locked 1911 over your thoracic triangle while we conversed?
How much are you willing to disregard that rule? A little, somewhat, a lot?
Gocart
Member
Yes, if you were my teammate.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Can I do it to your wife? To your children?
Gocart
Member
Tell you what, Ken. Make me as comfortable with your level of training and your background as I am with mine and my teammates, and I trust your judgement to do what you see fit and prudent in rescuing my family members from danger. It's unlikely that you'll see the need to have a long conversation with them with the gun pointed at their chest. If they represent a threat, neutralize the threat. If they don't, move on.
Friend you don't know me, but don't talk to me like I'm stupid.
Friend you don't know me, but don't talk to me like I'm stupid.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
That's a fair statement to make, and I respect it.
I keep a light next to my gun but not on it.
I agree with a few posts here about not using your gunlight to ID objects because it violates the 4 rules and I don't like the light IDing me.
But even more important is when I hear a noise in the house I don't investigate with any lights!
Learn your house in the dark? Is this so hard? I know my home better in the dark than any intruder does even if he has a flashlight or turns on the lights.
If a noise alerted me then I'll track that noise.
If you are in a dark bedroom you should have some night vision even if you don't learn to navigate your home without any light like a blind person would.
I will admit my house has a pretty simple floor plan - not a lot of nooks and corners to hide in but IF I was going to search my home I would be slow, low and quiet and in the dark.
Maybe its because I grew up with a blind sister but the darkness is my friend.
I agree with a few posts here about not using your gunlight to ID objects because it violates the 4 rules and I don't like the light IDing me.
But even more important is when I hear a noise in the house I don't investigate with any lights!
Learn your house in the dark? Is this so hard? I know my home better in the dark than any intruder does even if he has a flashlight or turns on the lights.
If a noise alerted me then I'll track that noise.
If you are in a dark bedroom you should have some night vision even if you don't learn to navigate your home without any light like a blind person would.
I will admit my house has a pretty simple floor plan - not a lot of nooks and corners to hide in but IF I was going to search my home I would be slow, low and quiet and in the dark.
Maybe its because I grew up with a blind sister but the darkness is my friend.
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