Wouldn't a weapon light give away your position?

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Yes, but:
1) a good, bright light can temporarily blind a BG, giving you the advantage. In a fight, milliseconds count.
2) are you really, really sure its a BG? Sure? Really? You're not shooting your best friend who's got a key, your FIL, your brother, your teenage son? Identfy your target.
3) What's behind the couch? Is that a BG, the dog, or a jacket hung on a chair? Whats in that corner? Again, identfy your target.
 
Great, guys.

Go ahead and plan to point your guns at your own family members.

It's okay, you read it on the internet.

Brilliant. :rolleyes:

pax
 
The loud noise and muzzle flash created by the discharge of a firearm might also give the shooter's position away to the villain unless, of course, the shooter is adept at hitting her mark in the dark. I am the only gunowner on the Internet who can't do that or much of anything else so I'm concerned about such things.

In fact I am so concerned about it that I had electricity installed in my home and have little globes in the ceiling that illuminate entire rooms at the flick of a switch. This technology is one I highly recommend.
 
There isn't anything wrong with having a light on a pistol. For those detractors it should be noted that there isn't any rule that says I have to use it. Its there if I need it, but can remain off if I don't. It also should be noted that a mounted light frees up a hand which can be used to do things like call 911, turn on house lights, or a variety of other things.

As far as shining lights at family members, I don't buy that at all. Whether your light is weapon mounted or you are using something like a surefire, if you are properly clearing the house, the weapon will be brought to bear in the direction of the target. You don't check on things that go bump in the night with a holstered pistol, or with it at your side. Thats just the nature of things.

However since everyone here uses proper gun handling techniques their finger is NOT on the trigger, thus no one gets accidentally shot.


Go ahead and plan to point your guns at your own family members.

It's okay, you read it on the internet.

Brilliant.

Of course the same could be said for your criticism as well. After all its just a gun board and you're not an operator.
 
Stage 2:

As far as shining lights at family members, I don't buy that at all. Whether your light is weapon mounted or you are using something like a surefire, if you are properly clearing the house, the weapon will be brought to bear in the direction of the target. You don't check on things that go bump in the night with a holstered pistol, or with it at your side. Thats just the nature of things.

I believe that the point Pax makes is that before the weapon is brought to bear in the direction of the target it is a good idea to make sure that what is in that direction is indeed a target one wants to shoot.

Pax makes the essential distinction between "target identification" and "target acquisition" (although I don't recall whether she uses those terms and I'm too tired to check). Her advice is to use a handheld light or other source of illumination independent of the firearm to determine whether the thing that went bump in the night is something you really do want to shoot instead of, say, a six-year-old who got out of bed to get a drink of water or the family cat returning from a hot date.

Most of us, I think, subscribe to Jeff Cooper's second rule of safety ("Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy") and also his fourth rule ("Be sure of your target"). Pax is simply pointing out its application with respect to a weapon mounted light.

I like having a light mounted on a firearm but I don't always have one available, so I train to use a handheld flashlight for both target identification and acquisition in the dark. I always have at least one good handheld flashlight on my person, usually two, and sometimes three or more. "Two lights is one," as Clint Smith said about guns, and "one light is none." These are very bright lights but not, in my opinion, death rays or stun guns.

As for clearing a house, especially my own, that's not an activity appropriate to my pay grade. Training for tactical use of flashlights is like having flood insurance in my book. I know I'll never need to call on either but since I was wrong about something else once before I like to hedge my bets.

The preceding two paragraphs reflect my own thinking and aren't necessarily what anyone else might want to do. But, for what it's worth, my favorite hobby is growing old without harming other people, and I've become really good at it.

As for Pax, I don't think that she is saying that a weapon mounted light is a bad idea. I think she's saying that it's not a good idea to use one to identify the target. If I've misrepresented her I hope she'll overcome her innate shyness long enough to correct me.
 
I understand what you are saying Robert, but my objections are two fold.

First, if you are going to use a hand held light to illuminate something you believe may be an intruder it it makes no sense to leave your gun at your side. Surprise and position are your advantage. If the intruder isn't blinded then my firearm is at the ready, whether he is intending to shoot back or just rush me. If my firearm is holstered or at my side I've made things that much harder for myself should things go south. If he is blinded then its just extra points for me.

In either case, my finger is OFF the trigger. I understand not letting the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to shoot, but between proper handling of the gun, and the potential danger of an intruder getting to me before I can get off several shots, any risk I feel is outweighed by the advantages.

Secondly, it seems very dubious to me that someone with no formal training in law enforcement or the military, has such a cut and dried opinion on tactics. Writing articles in gun magazines and taking classes does not an expert one make.
 
Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy! Sounds good doesn't it? Too bad that in the real world it's all BS. I agree that all new shooters should be trained in the 4 safety rules until it's reflexive. This is great for gun games, and the casual shooter. Saves a lot of damage to equipment and anatomy. If you think you don't violate the afore mentioned rule, stand in front of a mirror and draw and reholster you weapon a few times. Chances are, you'll sweep part of your anatomy in the process. Depending on your method of carry, it's extremely difficult not to. In my career of military and LE service, I have pointed my weapon at scores of persons that I did not shoot. I will continue to do so as required for my survival. I refuse to give up the small advantage of having my weapon pointed at any potential threat. No one has ever been injured by an unfired weapon pointed at them. If anyone chooses to give up that small advantage, I hope they never have to face a real life bad guy. You can bet your boots he'll have his weapon pointed at you! For clearing, the weapon's light is the way to go. You use it like you would any other light, just frees up the other hand, and insures your weapon is pointed where you are looking. For concealed carry I go with a handheld. Unless it's absolutely required, house clearing should not be attempted solo. It is best to bunker up and call in the calvary. Good luck to all. Stage 2 in right on!
str1
 
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I'm thinking this through. I dont have any real world experience yet. I am planning on mounting a light on my home defense carbine i am getting next week after reading both sides and feeling that the benefit of the weapon mounted light outweigh the negative.


Not even getting into the flash/blinding effect and its possible advantages or disadvantages...


clearing a dark confined area it seems that following rule #1 would be an impossibility. How can I know who or what your muzzle is covering in the dark?

Unless I keep my gun holstered at all times and your flashlight pointed until I identify a threat. But who sleeps in a belt and holster? Even then, wouldnt it be impractical? Shouldnt I lead with with my weapon should I need to clear the house.

on top of that it seems rule #4 would also be difficult to follow without a light. How can you be sure of your target?

if youre going to have the light, and going to be leading with your weapon isnt it better to have it mounted on your gun in case you need to check out what your weapon is covering?

i know people speak on the advantage of stealth in being in your own home. But i really dont know about you guys, but if its dark, i cant see and navigate my home quietly. i have to feel my way a bit with a free hand to get to light switches, door knobs, etc. And on top of that, floors creak and are easily heard in the quiet night.

Imagine a home invasion scenario, where a bad guy takes advantage of a power outage at night? You have children or loved ones in another room so you cant stay put. But you have no choice other than to navigate your home in the dark?

i think the most convincing advantage as has been stated is you dont have to use it, or you can learn or use your own judgment in how and when to use it.

Its the same argument that can be made for gun ownership in general. Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Convincing enough for me.
 
Pax,
While I certainly respect your opinions and thoughts.....
When it comes to ensuring that I don't lose in a fight, and that I'm not shooting a loved one mistaken for a BG, with a weapon mounted light I'd not hesitate to break rule 1 and 4.
I've always found rule 3 to be the most important. Of course, at the range I'm not sweeping you with my muzzle. But in the dark hallway, when I'm going to check on my kids after a bump in the night, if I see a shadow, I will have my weapon trained on it until I identify it.
 
CountGlockula said:
But what got me thinking is: if a bad guy were to see the beam of light and use that as a excellent target. Could there be a disadvantage with weapon lights?
I think that would depend on your circumstances. If you are the pursuer (police/swat/human hunter) then it would definitely be a disadvantage. If not, the only time you would have it pointed at anyone is if you were in danger of being attacked, in which case your position has already been identified by your attacker. IOW, if your attacker doesn’t even know where you are, you can’t be in grave danger, right?
 
In the 50 cases studied in the Violent Encounter studies only in 2 of the 50 cases did a light (any light) give away their position. In neither of those cases was the flashlight used to blind the assailant.
 
Robert Hairless said:
As for Pax, I don't think that she is saying that a weapon mounted light is a bad idea. I think she's saying that it's not a good idea to use one to identify the target. If I've misrepresented her I hope she'll overcome her innate shyness long enough to correct me.

Thanks, Robert. You pretty well nailed it.

These guys are pretty well planning to directly point their guns at their own loved ones, at a moment of high stress when any unexpected noise or movement might cause them to shoot.

"It's okay, my finger won't be on the trigger." That is a monumentally ignorant comment, right up there with "... but the gun isn't loaded!" as some ignoramous sweeps you at the range. In short, following one of the Four Rules does not give you a free pass to violate all the others.

More germaine, however, is the fact that the reason you are pointing the gun at that person is because you fully intend to pull the trigger quickly if you need to do it. That's why your gun is out in the first place! You are all tensed up and prepared to shoot at a moment's notice. If the person so much as sneezes, you are going to pull the trigger.

And now your plan is to point the gun directly at the unidentified person, tensed up and ready to fire ...

Better hope your loved one doesn't sneeze.

pax
 
I can say from experience, those weapons mounted lights definately give advantage to the person using them. I was an intern at the US Marshals office here in my city. They have a Simunitions training facility there. I was chosen (because I'm the intern) to be the bad guy for several different training scenarios. One of those scenarios I was a bad guy in the living room while the USMS deputies busted in. I had a Sim-gun in my hand, and I even heard them coming down the hall. I had prepared myself to shoot at them, until they came busting in the door. As soon as one of them pointed their weapon mounted lights at me, all I could see were white dots. I couldn't see anything behing the light. It was totally disruptive of what I was planning on doing and I didn't even get a shot off before I was bombarded by USMS fire.

Weapons lights WORK!! I went out and bought one that day!
 
Pax, one thing to keep in mind on the weapon mounted lights is that you don't need to point them directly at the possible target. Any light over 60 lumens pointed at the wall near them, or the floor infront of them provides plenty of light to identify, and when I say near, I'm talking about in the same room.

I've got a 120 lumen bulb in my home defense carbine. It lights up that whole section of my house. (I don't use the 220 bulb, because it lights up the neighborhood, and blinds everybody, including me) I don't need to actually put the sight on the thing that I'm suspecting I need to shoot.

And on that note, if you're using a shotgun or a carbine, then your light needs to be weapon mounted. How many folks here have run a long gun with a light in their weak hand? It is really really difficult to do. Dang near impossible with a pump shotgun.

This is one of those really complicated topics that requires training and practice in the actual dark, preferably with people armed with Airsoft guns so that it hurts when you screw up. It is hard to convey concepts like that online.
 
Correia ~

All well and good, but you'll notice that about half the posts are going on to say that they will use their light to "blind" the still-unidentified subject.

You cannot deliberately blind someone with a flashlight unless you point it at their face -- as anyone who ever went camping as a child would know ("Get that light outta my face, kid!")

pax
 
I use an M&P40 with a TLR-2 hanging on it.

I also have a Fenix L2D that I keep on the bed side (close to the pistol).

I've always thought it best to have the additional light so I don't have to use the weaponlight to identify a potential intruder. But if the poo poo begins to splatter, I can always drop the light and activate the weapon light.

Of course, as a bonus, having two lights pointed at an assailant/intruder might signify he is being confronted by more than one person.

I'm not recommending this as a best practice, but it is how I practice these scenarios and works well for me.

It is also important to note in the argument about "lighting" the questionable subject with your muzzle, that everyone's situation is different. I have children in the house, so obviously a bump in the night is likely to be a child (I have cameras set up to help verify this immediately - i.e. if a child is still in his/her bed).

But some people, who live alone and know there is no reason for anyone else to be in the house, using a weapon-mounted light might be a more viable option, IMO.
 
If we are talking about encounters in or near the home I will take home mounted lights over a gun mounted light anyday. You have lost the game and put your family in danger if your home is set up so it is pitch dark in the areas of interest to a perp in this day and time. Why for a few pennies a month would you let yourself get in that position. I quess one can say the perp may cut the main power line. So what if my power is cut, you should have lights that come on in places that would be dark like hallways and room corners, cheap and easy from Radio Shack good for any emergency not just an intruder.
Today when light is so easy and cheap to obtain why on earth would you have your home so dark at night. Ok, I like a dark bedroom but the rest of the house is lit so that I could see who is there at night it doesn't take much light. I just don't get the gun light thing at home in the house. I ain't looking for perps down the street or outside, there are people hired to do that called Police.
If your going to respond in the house, at night, with a gun, then get responsible and light the areas of interest. It ain't that hard. Flame away :)
 
Pax, that's why I said it was a matter for training.

It is a quick flash from the floor or wall - ID target - OH CRAP nobody I know - to putting the light in the guy's face.

This is a fun one to do in force on force, because then the twitchy people get a good wake up call when they end up shooting the roleplayer who is a member of their family getting the milk out of the fridge. :)

The mounted lights are just another tool in the tool box. Like any other, they take some thought about how to use them effectively.

So I know exactly where your concern comes from. A lot of folks buying gear, but not having the software to use it right. It doesn't make that piece of gear bad, it just means that there is a potential for misuse.
 
The outside of my house will light up like a xmas tree if anyone crosses the path of my lights outside, but I don't know about anyone else, but I have a hard time going to sleep if there are any lights on.

There is also the factor of using surprise, unless your nights are on all night long (see the above) you start turning on lights, and the guy knows your there and if he really wants you dead not only can you see him, but he can see you. A flashlight limits things, he might know your general location (if he can see the beam), but if you shine it in his eyes he can't see you, but you can see him.

Also many people go deer in the headlights when you shine a flashlight on them.
 
You cannot deliberately blind someone with a flashlight unless you point it at their face

Not true. In a low light situation the side spill from a good weapon light is sufficient to momentarily 'blind' a person.

I've been working for years, literally, to undue some of my military training. For example I've learned to react differently now to a hang fire than I was trained to react in the Army.

On this topic however, I don't think that I would want to unlearn my training and would agree with those that say that in a real life situation such as the one described above the rules are not so black and white.

I also know that sneezes do not make me lose control.
 
In fact I am so concerned about it that I had electricity installed in my home and have little globes in the ceiling that illuminate entire rooms at the flick of a switch. This technology is one I highly recommend.
But those globes don't mount to a Picatinny rail!
 
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