Wouldn't a weapon light give away your position?

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I'm with shooter1, I have pointed my weapon at people I didn't shoot, and will continue to do so throughout my time in LE. I have no kids t preface things. Therefore in my if I hear a bump, it's the same rules as checking someone elses house for inturders. Weapon out, index on the area of threat and use the light to make ID's, see the terrain, and plan my moves. Could I possibly ended up pointing my weapon at someone I have no intention of shooting, sure anything's possible. Realistically, if someone's there that I have no advanced warning of, they need to be covered and dealt with.

-Jenrick
 
A couple things should be noted here.

First off, if someone has spent any length of time in a house or any length of time around their roommate/family/kids there are sounds that are going to be recognizable. About every other night my wife wakes up and goes to the kitchen for some water. Half asleep, I know what this sounds like.

Its the sounds that I haven't heard or dont feel right that get investigated. As such, the likelihood that its a loved one is lessened.

Secondly, a proper light (something 60 lumens or above) doesn't need to be pointed directly in the face of someone to blind them. This entire scenario is dependent on the fact that its so dark that you can't properly identify who or what is in the house. Thus, merely turning on the lights in the room would probably be disorienting enough for the perp (and for you). So ti goes without saying that an indirect blast from a surefire will absolutely blind.


Finally, this idea that you can't violate the cardinal rule of covering someone with the muzzle is stupid and dangerous. We aren't talking about walking up to someone, sticking the gun in their face and turning the light on. If thats what people are thinking then I'd recommend some training post haste.

What we are talking about is having the firearm at the ready pointed in the general direction of the area your clearing. This isn't the range. This is someone engaged in a dangerous activity with potentially life threatening consequences and some rules aren't going to be able to be followed 100%.


"It's okay, my finger won't be on the trigger." That is a monumentally ignorant comment, right up there with "... but the gun isn't loaded!" as some ignoramous sweeps you at the range. In short, following one of the Four Rules does not give you a free pass to violate all the others.
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See above. The two situations aren't applicable.


More germaine, however, is the fact that the reason you are pointing the gun at that person is because you fully intend to pull the trigger quickly if you need to do it. That's why your gun is out in the first place! You are all tensed up and prepared to shoot at a moment's notice. If the person so much as sneezes, you are going to pull the trigger.
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With all due respect Pax, if someone sneezing causes you to pull the trigger then I suggest that you put the writing off for a while and get some range time... alot of range time.

With proper training you shouldn't be all tensed up ready to spring like a hair trigger. There will be adrenaline no doubt, but it should be properly channeled. This is your house, your hunting ground. You put yourself in control of the situation to where something bad cant happen.

There's far more to this than having a pistol or a flashlight. There is a situational awareness which arguably far outweighs the equipment which is used, and your comments suggest that this is something you are completely unaware of.
 
But what got me thinking is: if a bad guy were to see the beam of light and use that as a excellent target. Could there be a disadvantage with weapon lights
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Sure there can be a disadvantage to suing alight, but there can also be a disadvantage to shoting an innocent person in the dark. Learn how to use a light correctly, and the proper type of ligt to use, and minimize the disadvantages while still making the most of the advantages of the light.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
In the long ago, I was trained to hold the gun in my right hand, and hold the light in my left hand, out to the left and forward of the body. That way if the BG made the assumption that the light was in the right hand and fired where the body would be, he would miss me by at least three feet and I could fire at his muzzle flash.

I agree that the light on the gun is nice and convenient and looks great in those gunzine ads, but the people who champion it seem to mostly be armchair gunfighters. Sure it can blind someone if they are right in the beam, but if they are not, they will be shooting at the light and if your face is right behind it, well, your worries are over.

IMHO, and I know all the gunzine gunfighters will disagree, but if you are in a building or entering a building where a BG might be (like your home), the best way to illuminate the scene is simply TURN ON THE DAMNED LIGHTS! The lights will surprise any intruder and since you will be expecting them and he won't be, you will have the advantage. And that way you can take in the whole scene in a second, not by waving your gun light around like an idiot trying to pick up in one corner what might be in the other.

If you are where you are legitimately, why would you sneak around with a light like a two-bit burglar? That is some kind of fantasy video game, not the real world. Of course, fantasy is what mainly sells that "tactical" junk in the first place. I expect to see black nylon tactical jock straps any time now.

Jim
 
but if you are in a building or entering a building where a BG might be (like your home), the best way to illuminate the scene is simply TURN ON THE DAMNED LIGHTS!
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Which will have the same effect on you as the perp. If its dark, then your eyes are just as adjusted to the low light as his are. No thanks.

I'd much rather have all the candle power going his way.
 
STAGE 2 said:
With proper training you shouldn't be all tensed up ready to spring like a hair trigger. There will be adrenaline no doubt, but it should be properly channeled.
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I absolutely agree.

When talking to people online, however, you are talking to people who are, by and large, completely untrained.

The issue isn't how much training I personally have had.

The issue is how much training has the guy had who just took your advice?

Planning to point the gun at unidentified human beings is a bad idea. Use your weapon-mounted light to help you hit the identified bad guy, not to deliberately sweep your own family members.

pax
 
Planning to point the gun at unidentified human beings is a bad idea. Use your weapon-mounted light to help you hit the identified bad guy, not to deliberately sweep your own family members.

With all due respect:
No one deliberately sweeps their family members. ANYunidentified person in my house, or any I might be clearing, is a bad guy until found to be otherwise, and will be dealt with accordingly! Range and safety rules work well on the range and in non threatning environments. In the real world the only rule is to do whatever it takes to win. Point your weapon at the floor while doing a threat accessment if you like, mine will be pointed at the subject/area in question. I'll repeat my earlier statement: It is always best to barricade and call the police if your home has possibly been unlawfully entered, unless the safety of others require you to clear your way to another part of the house. Good luck to all!
str1
 
Use your weapon-mounted light to help you hit the identified bad guy, not to deliberately sweep your own family members.
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But therein lies the rub, you don't know whether its a bad guy or not. As such, if you properly have your weapon at the ready, its going to be facing in the direction of the target.

You can't get around this unless you simply aren't pointing your weapon, which is bad form to begin with.

Theres a reason why when LEO's clear houses, or engage in arrests, they have their guns drawn and pointed. There may be a kid in the next room, but there may be a 250lb crack addict as well. Because you don't know, you take your chances with covering the kid.
 
People have seem to forgotten that you can point the light toward the floor, wall or ceiling and still see with the scatter.
 
ANY unidentified person in my house, or any I might be clearing, is a bad guy until found to be otherwise, and will be dealt with accordingly!
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The problem with this kind of thinking is that it is living in a fantasy world. In the real world, you probably love at least some of the people you live with. If you have kids, you might even love them enough to think you would rather die than to harm them in any way.

One of the tremendous advantages the bad guy has is that he has no compunction. He can literally go in and shoot anything that moves. He does not have to hesitate or identify his target and he simply does not care who he kills.

Make no mistake, that kind of attitude is a tremendous tactical advantage.

That's why some of the folks in this thread have come awfully close to suggesting that they will simply treat every noise, every motion, every ... human ... as a Genuine Bad Guy "until proven otherwise." It's a lot safer that way, after all.

And I agree. That attitude is a tremendous tactical advantage.

But the real world -- as STAGE 2 suggests -- does indeed involve trade offs. As a cop, he would ruin his career if he killed someone else's kid while clearing a house. But to him as a trained officer, the risk of pointing the gun at an innocent is minor and negligible compared to the risk of getting smeared by the drug dealer hiding in the next room.

All well and good.

But for the ordinary guy, the trade off isn't the risk of pointing the gun at someone else's kid against the risk from a known drug dealer in the next room. It is the risk of pointing the gun at your very own child. Or at your wife. Or at your lover. And the drug dealer in the next room isn't that -- he's a noise that might possibly be a home intruder, or might be nothing at all.

As a parent, how would you feel if you killed your own kid, simply because you wanted the tactical advantage over a bad guy who wasn't even there?

pax
 
First you say this...

One of the tremendous advantages the bad guy has is that he has no compunction. He can literally go in and shoot anything that moves.
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And then you say this...


It is the risk of pointing the gun at your very own child. Or at your wife. Or at your lover. And the drug dealer in the next room isn't that -- he's a noise that might possibly be a home intruder, or might be nothing at all.
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For the very reason that the guy breaking into my house has no qualms about killing me and everyone else at home, I am going to have my weapon at the ready.

All this fluff about pointing guns at people I love is just that, fluff. Of course I'd feel terrible if I injured or killed a loved one. But guess what. My firearms don't shoot by themselves. They don't have minds of their own, spewing bullets willy nilly. They go off when the trigger is pulled. Period.

Your argument that because my gun may be pointed at my kid I am going to shoot them has as much merit as the argument that because a home has guns, someone will get shot. Thats simply not true.

Guns are drawn and pointed at folks every day. Magically these people aren't shot. Proper training and proper gun handling assure this.

To put it another way, if someone can't properly identify a target without accidentally shooting it, then they probably shouldn't own a gun.
 
First off I have seen Clint Smith's video, and I really think he is wrong. I have been meaning to email him and discuss this, as I think the practice could be dangerous as hell, but I can see where he is coming from by teaching it to the basic gun idiot.

Everyone of the posts seems to focus around seeing the target, but not one of them seem to talk about what the target sees.:rolleyes: About 6-8 months ago a friend and I decided to conduct a experiment. We tested some lower intensity flashlights, and the "blinding factor of tactical flashlights.

First off go get a maglight with relatively low lumans and shine yourself in the face after a few minutes in the darkness. It is just as perceptibly disorienting as a surefire.

Now I will give you the short of the test. We tested constant light, flashing light, and the same while the light was moving.

What we found out.

1. All light you produce will get you killed fairly quickly. We took good shooters and poor shooters out for this test, and even without night sights on some pistols people were scoring direct hits on flashlights with the first 2-3 rounds.

2. Strobing, or Sweeping the light is most effective, but you must move as you do this, because even a quick flash is enough to get the light or whatever is immediately behind it shot quickly.

It is amazing how many people will look at shootings from the good guys point of view but won't turn the game around, and see what challenges and help is given to said bad guy.:banghead:

If you really want some good information go to stratego arms I believe.

Lastly have a light off the weapon before you get one on the weapon. Although I haven't practiced this to much yet I have been told to have one off the rifle/submachine gun as well. Flash it at varied positions AWAY FROM THE BODY.

If you have questions etc feel free to PM me as I don't pay alot of attention to the highroad anymore.
 
To those that advocate turning on the light in the room. Works well and good when you can setup a good position of cover and concealment and have a good view of the whole area when you kick on the light. Else you can turn on the light and be just as disoriented as the yahoo in the room with you, and at a tactical disadvantage due to poor positioning. It also ties you to ONE location for activating/deactivating the lights (yeah you can run to the next switch in a three way switch...). A light in hand, weapon or handheld, gives you way more tactical flexability.

I for a long time was an advocate of not using weapon lights, because they tended to cause you to keep your weapon to high to scan effectively for threats (this is in a CQB/building clearing context). However after spending way to much time sticking my SL-20 under my armpit to open doors etc, I converted to a weapon light. It provided immenese extra flexability due to having a free hand and not needing to hold onto your flashlight.

I think another thing people are over looking: if you're going investigating the bump in the night and are NOT expecting a bad guy you're going to get killed or injured. You are HUNTING, you WANT to find the bad guy. That way you are not suprised, you are not slowed in shock or terror. You are mentally prepared to engage the threat, and stop it. If you can not get into that mindset, then do not go investigating. If you've got kids/dependants, setup a fall back position or plan, and have them come to you and dig in where you can wait to engage what comes around the corner.

If you're going to go through a door and not be prepared to immeadiately engage and stop a threat that is nose to nose with you when you go through that door, you should not go through that door. You will get hurt or killed if you run into something.

-Jenrick
 
Honestly how hard is it to go from low ready (can identify the target but muzzle is not pointed at them) to on target with minimal practice?
 
You are HUNTING, you WANT to find the bad guy. That way you are not suprised, you are not slowed in shock or terror. You are mentally prepared to engage the threat, and stop it. If you can not get into that mindset, then do not go investigating.
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Bingo. Thats it right there. If you don't have the proper mindset, then there are no tools or equipment that will make up for it.


Honestly how hard is it to go from low ready (can identify the target but muzzle is not pointed at them) to on target with minimal practice?
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Its not about hard, its about real world probabilities. There is some drill (the name escapes me at the moment) that shows an attacker can cover something like 21 feet before you can bring the gun to bear. Even assuming if you do did get a shot off, it probably wont be a well aimed one, and probably wont stop the perp.

I'm not willing to give anyone this advantage. I'm going to keep myself far enough away to where if he actually does get to me, hes going to be leaking out of 4 or 5 holes COM. Then we can start the wrestling match.

I'm going to do this by having my firearm at the ready to begin with. There is no telling what an intruder will do when you make your presence known. He might run, he might fight, or he might piss himself. Who knows.
 
My intent in posting to this thread, was to express my views based on real experience and no BS training. I think my position is quite clear. For those who choose to disagree with me, that's your privlege. I am powerless to change your mind. Good luck and good heath to all.
str1
 
I'll put it this way then.

Let's simply acquiesce that you're giving something up by keeping the firearm in low ready.

However if we do that, we also have to acquiesce that it's because the physical position of the firearm makes it easier to shoot somebody in front of you.

The question then becomes, how likely is it, really, that the person directly in front of you needs to be shot?

It's a judgment call. People who live alone probably have much more incentive to keep the firearm at the ready. People who might live with a family should probably weigh the decision according to the circumstances.

In my living situation, I have two innocent parties who may come and go at odd hours, and yes, I have investigated a bump in the night before. If it's in an area where they're likely to enter, I point a light there before pointing a gun there. Now, if it were in an area where such their entry is highly unlikely, I'd probably change my tactics.
 
A couple years back I bought a little M3 rail light for my Glock for a night fire training and shoot.
I learned that my little Streamlight scorpion was more useful for night time maneuvers. If there are multiple possible threats you usually don't want your source of light to be in front of your body.
Lights attract Bugs and Slugs. Don't forget to move to a new position after you have turned off your light.
The only use I have found for my M3 rail light is for when I am shooting at Nutria around dusk.
Just my opinion on pistol rail mounted lights. Your mileage may vary, etc.
 
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I too have run some tests and I will tell you this: If I am a really bad guy and I am in an area (say a store or warehouse) and you enter in the dark with your silly pistol mouted light, I will kill you. No ifs, no ands, no buts. You are a light source in the dark and I will fire at that light source, and I will have had time to take cover or concealment. No matter what you think or believe, unless you are lucky enough to get me full in the face with the light the first time you turn it on, you will be dead.

Since you don't know where I am, you will have to sweep the whole area, and what do you think I will be doing while your gun is pointed somewhere else? Playing solitaire maybe?

The gunzine gurus and the people selling those lights want you to think they are some kind of magic that will light up the bad guy without being seen by him. That might work with infra-red or special night goggles, but it won't work with an ordinary light, no matter how bright.

Jim
 
Unless they are facing in the complete opposite direction it's unlikely that you won't get lite up by the spill, most tactical lights have a single very bright dot, and a wider spread for searching.

I also doubt that you have experienced the brightness of modern tactical lights using eyes that have been begun going into night vision levels. You got lights that you can discreetly carry that put out twice the light of a Maglite, and unlike the old Maglites most of that is centered in a beam that doesn't need to be focused.
 
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Jim Keenan

I too have run some tests and I will tell you this: If I am a really bad guy and I am in an area (say a store or warehouse) and you enter in the dark with your silly pistol mouted light, I will kill you. No ifs, no ands, no buts. You are a light source in the dark and I will fire at that light source, and I will have had time to take cover or concealment. No matter what you think or believe, unless you are lucky enough to get me full in the face with the light the first time you turn it on, you will be dead.
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This is EXACTLY the way I feel about that 'tac light' stuff. I just can't understand anyone who thinks differently on this. :)

Going into a dark room, with a possible deadly enemy in it... with a light attached to you, of all things... just seems ill-advised, to put it in the most charitable way.
 
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