Nightcrawler
Member
Ninja....vanish....
A New Trend In Policing ???
- Thread starter David
- Start date
- Status
I may be wrong, but I think "Dick Clark" said is was 40 degrees in Times Square on his Rockin' New Year's Show.
Can any New Yorkers comfirm the weather on New Year's Eve in the Times Square area?
When it is about 40 degrees outside, I don't see many folks in my area needing to wear "face coverings"!
Can any New Yorkers comfirm the weather on New Year's Eve in the Times Square area?
When it is about 40 degrees outside, I don't see many folks in my area needing to wear "face coverings"!
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El Tejon
Member
David, if you are a ninja, then the NEED to cover your face exists at all times. A ninja does not want his face to be seen or the peasants could hold him accountable.
Ninja . . . . vanish.
to cover your face exists at all times. A ninja does not want his face to be seen or the peasants could hold him accountable.Ninja . . . . vanish.
I would like to say I am VERY pro-law enforcement.
I am concerned, however, of the possible para-military trend of American policing.
If you look at the photo posted above, you will notice the police officer is the ONLY person (I can observe) in the picture wearing a "face covering."
Why?
Just my 2 cents...
I am concerned, however, of the possible para-military trend of American policing.
If you look at the photo posted above, you will notice the police officer is the ONLY person (I can observe) in the picture wearing a "face covering."
Why?
Just my 2 cents...
fix
Member
Agree that the mask is bad. Disagree on all other points.
Balog
Member
Uhh, fix? A number of points have been presented. Which ones do you disagree with?
trooper
Member
I don't think you should generally rule face covers out.
Police officers can sometimes become targets just for belonging to a certain unit and doing a certain kind of police work.
I'd like to remind you of the GSG-9 officer whose house got burned down by left-wing terrorists because his identity had leaked through (happened just a couple years ago).
If I were going up against people who are crazy enough to go after individual officers and their families I wouldn't want them to have any personal information (including what my face looks like) about me.
Regards,
Trooper
Police officers can sometimes become targets just for belonging to a certain unit and doing a certain kind of police work.
I'd like to remind you of the GSG-9 officer whose house got burned down by left-wing terrorists because his identity had leaked through (happened just a couple years ago).
If I were going up against people who are crazy enough to go after individual officers and their families I wouldn't want them to have any personal information (including what my face looks like) about me.
Regards,
Trooper
Hkmp5sd
Member
I have no problem with LEOs having long guns, even full-auto ones (although it does bother me that civilians don't have access to the same weapons), and walking around in black "tactical" attire, as long as they are obviously law enforcement officers. In fact, I think it is totally asinine that all LEOs do not have access to long guns in their patrol vehicles. Not only does it place the officer's life in danger (ala the North Hollywood shootout), but gives the news media and gun grabbers the opportunity to use the phrase, "The police were outgunned...", and lets them push for more gun control. If the police are outgunned, it is because their political leaders put them in that position.
There are also situations in which a LEO is justified in hiding his features. But when performing tasks like the above picture, find some other job for those officers that must keep their identity secret and put fully uniformed officers in public, even if dressed in their black BDUs and toting M4s. I don't see the need for using ninjas for crowd control or vehicle inspections.
There are also situations in which a LEO is justified in hiding his features. But when performing tasks like the above picture, find some other job for those officers that must keep their identity secret and put fully uniformed officers in public, even if dressed in their black BDUs and toting M4s. I don't see the need for using ninjas for crowd control or vehicle inspections.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Wait, isn't that one of those guns that the VPC says are designed to be fired from the hip, not the shoulder, and have no other purpose than to mow down large numbers of people?
fix
Member
Clarifying
I have no problems with LE having specialized equipment as pictured to fulfill the requirements of a specific mission. The trend towards militarization of police disturbs me in general, but there are most definitely situations that require police to be armed to the teeth. I think this is one of them. I think SWAT teams and the like are a necessary evil, but their employment must be carefully regulated and scrutinized heavily. I also believe that it is sometimes necessary to put these personnel "on the street" in specific circumstances in order to be prepared to respond. That being said, it is up to us to make sure that this type of thing doesn't become the norm...but rather, remains the exception.
Now, there is another point that is often made regarding LE weaponry as it relates to private ownership of firearms. I am not in agreement that if the general public can't have it, LE can't either. That's the wrong way to present the argument. I believe that if LE can have it, I should too. Seems petty at first, but if you take time to think about it, you'll see how important the distinction is.
I have no problems with LE having specialized equipment as pictured to fulfill the requirements of a specific mission. The trend towards militarization of police disturbs me in general, but there are most definitely situations that require police to be armed to the teeth. I think this is one of them. I think SWAT teams and the like are a necessary evil, but their employment must be carefully regulated and scrutinized heavily. I also believe that it is sometimes necessary to put these personnel "on the street" in specific circumstances in order to be prepared to respond. That being said, it is up to us to make sure that this type of thing doesn't become the norm...but rather, remains the exception.
Now, there is another point that is often made regarding LE weaponry as it relates to private ownership of firearms. I am not in agreement that if the general public can't have it, LE can't either. That's the wrong way to present the argument. I believe that if LE can have it, I should too. Seems petty at first, but if you take time to think about it, you'll see how important the distinction is.
JohnBT
Member
Those fellas would be outgunned in some neighborhoods around here.
This is from the local paper's article on people shooting on New Year's Eve,
"Police also seized 45 weapons - including 23 semiautomatic pistols, eight shotguns and six assault rifles - in a 24-hour period"
The City population is only 200,000 and I see we're 13th on the new per capita homocide list.
Can we borrow some of those fellas with the big guns?
John
This is from the local paper's article on people shooting on New Year's Eve,
"Police also seized 45 weapons - including 23 semiautomatic pistols, eight shotguns and six assault rifles - in a 24-hour period"
The City population is only 200,000 and I see we're 13th on the new per capita homocide list.
Can we borrow some of those fellas with the big guns?
John
Hkmp5sd
Member
How come the media never reports how many revolvers and hunting rifles the police seize?
Treylis
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if they called wheelguns semi-automatic pistols and '03 Springfields assault rifles.
Factuality is often an issue in those 'inventory' statements.
Factuality is often an issue in those 'inventory' statements.
21 shooter
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2004
- Messages
- 4
Most folks will either like or dislike the BDU's. There is not much middle ground. But those nice spiffy uniforms and shiny patent leather shoes are not anywhere close to being comfortable or practical. Put all of that stuff on and then try try to chase or fight someone. The BDU's are much better and more comfortable. A good pair of boots are essential.
You can practice "community policing" in that spiffy uniform, and that is fine to a point, but when dealing with the bad guys or other situations they just are not the best clothing for the job. You can also take a picture and make anything out of it, just like the anti-gunners can take an incident and turn it into anything but what it was.
And far to many administrators worry more about what their officers look like than their safety. They are usually safe and sound behind a desk. This does not apply to all, just to many. Sorry to be long-winded on this.
You can practice "community policing" in that spiffy uniform, and that is fine to a point, but when dealing with the bad guys or other situations they just are not the best clothing for the job. You can also take a picture and make anything out of it, just like the anti-gunners can take an incident and turn it into anything but what it was.
And far to many administrators worry more about what their officers look like than their safety. They are usually safe and sound behind a desk. This does not apply to all, just to many. Sorry to be long-winded on this.
BowStreetRunner
Member
it is a recognized trend that american police are becoming more militarized
this is in stark contrast to the community policing doctrine that became so popular in the 80's and 90's (and remains the doctrine of many departments)
i dont have a problem with police having SWAT teams and M-4s....but i do have a huge problem with it when the police overuse their SWAT capabilities.....and disasterously raid the wroung house or misuse their power......if they use them responsibly fine, misuse = bad mojo
BSR
this is in stark contrast to the community policing doctrine that became so popular in the 80's and 90's (and remains the doctrine of many departments)
i dont have a problem with police having SWAT teams and M-4s....but i do have a huge problem with it when the police overuse their SWAT capabilities.....and disasterously raid the wroung house or misuse their power......if they use them responsibly fine, misuse = bad mojo
BSR
21 shooter, a couple of points here:
- WELCOME TO THR!! Pull up a chair and set awhile.
- That AIN'T 'long winded". We talk about important principles here, and 'sound bites' don't usually cut it. Feel free to lay out your case!
- The problem isn't with the officers being comfortable - it's with the civil police becoming more like a military force. That's directly opposed to the principles on which this country was founded. It's a symptom of a much larger problem - that of Ameica gradually becoming a police state.
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wolf
Member
it will never be the same..
I find it strange the reaction to NY police in "condition one" attire. Like it or not the world has changed forever. The US will always be at war with terrorists and wannabe terrorists. We are just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I see it this way. If I carry CCW my attitude has changed, people I come in contact with have no idea what my "condition" is and treat me accordingly. But if I were to open carry, ahhh, some folks will give me a wide birth and some will not even interact with me because of fear that I may "turn" on them.
And then, some attitude of Anti-gunners comes in, "its ok to carry a .45 in a holster, but NOT a M4 "assult weapon".
Very strange indeed.
I find it strange the reaction to NY police in "condition one" attire. Like it or not the world has changed forever. The US will always be at war with terrorists and wannabe terrorists. We are just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I see it this way. If I carry CCW my attitude has changed, people I come in contact with have no idea what my "condition" is and treat me accordingly. But if I were to open carry, ahhh, some folks will give me a wide birth and some will not even interact with me because of fear that I may "turn" on them.
And then, some attitude of Anti-gunners comes in, "its ok to carry a .45 in a holster, but NOT a M4 "assult weapon".
Very strange indeed.
Nightcrawler
Member
I don't care if the police have BDU type utility uniforms. Making them camouflage is silly, obviously (especially "urban" camouflage, which doesn't seem to blend in with anything), but if I were equipping a police department they'd get navy blue BDUs and comfortable utility boots. (The tuck in BDU shirts look better, though, and are just as good.) Expecting police to chase down a fleeing suspect in that nice dress uniform is like expecting me to install a mine field in my Class A's.
That said, I have issues with M4 carbines and MP5 submachine guns being issued en masse. Not because I'm opposed to these weapons; while I harbor no desire for either one, they do have their uses. My primary concern is that the police being issued these aren't receiving adequate training, ESPECIALLY for models equipped for fully automatic firing. Heck, large portions of the Army don't get adequate small arms training, I can only imagine what kind of ammo budget a city police department gets. Fully automatic weapons, in the hands of undertrained personnel, in crowded areas, could lead to a lot of bystanders being injured or killed.
That said, I have issues with M4 carbines and MP5 submachine guns being issued en masse. Not because I'm opposed to these weapons; while I harbor no desire for either one, they do have their uses. My primary concern is that the police being issued these aren't receiving adequate training, ESPECIALLY for models equipped for fully automatic firing. Heck, large portions of the Army don't get adequate small arms training, I can only imagine what kind of ammo budget a city police department gets. Fully automatic weapons, in the hands of undertrained personnel, in crowded areas, could lead to a lot of bystanders being injured or killed.
TheeBadOne
Member
I suspect that full-automatic weapons are in the vast minority in Police Depts. Some have 2 or 3 round burst capability, but these are usually SWAT teams (usually MP5). In my entire state I am only aware of a couple Depts that have the bust mode (all MP5). None have full-auto. 99.9% have semi-auto only. My local PD bought M-4A3 rifles and converted them to semi-auto only.
2 cents
2 cents
21 shooter
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2004
- Messages
- 4
Quartus,
Thanks for the welcome. I should have been more specific on the BDU's. I should have said that they are more functional. Comfort being one of the nice things that goes with that.
Nightcrawler,
Unless budgets change, I don't think that you will see those type of weapons being issued enmasse. In capable and trained hands, they are very useful. That being said, many depts. cannot or will not give officers the training they should have. Most of the time, this is due to money, or they figure if they gave you a new toy, that should be enough. The training issue doesn't come up until there is a lawsuit. And, sadly enough, you are correct about the military not getting the training they should. Maybe the current administration can start to change that. Klinton did a good job of cutting the throat of those that defend our nation.
It would seem that most of this is directed at PD's. If it is a Deputy in a rural setting, his backup could be 30 minutes away in many instances. He has to survive with what he has, and there are times when a pistol or shotgun are not enough. The change in weapons is a slow but sure response to what the bad guys are using. Going up against an AR-15/M16, AK type rifle, or hunting rifles with a pistol is a losing proposition. And the officer may not have time to wait for backup. It could cost him or a citizen their life.
As has already been said, training is an important issue. I know that there are some "Rambo" types out there. But there are far more that would like to do their job, and go home to their families at the end of the shift without any extra holes in them. If you have ever been on the sharp end of the stick, it changes your perception somewhat.
Thanks for the welcome. I should have been more specific on the BDU's. I should have said that they are more functional. Comfort being one of the nice things that goes with that.
Nightcrawler,
Unless budgets change, I don't think that you will see those type of weapons being issued enmasse. In capable and trained hands, they are very useful. That being said, many depts. cannot or will not give officers the training they should have. Most of the time, this is due to money, or they figure if they gave you a new toy, that should be enough. The training issue doesn't come up until there is a lawsuit. And, sadly enough, you are correct about the military not getting the training they should. Maybe the current administration can start to change that. Klinton did a good job of cutting the throat of those that defend our nation.
It would seem that most of this is directed at PD's. If it is a Deputy in a rural setting, his backup could be 30 minutes away in many instances. He has to survive with what he has, and there are times when a pistol or shotgun are not enough. The change in weapons is a slow but sure response to what the bad guys are using. Going up against an AR-15/M16, AK type rifle, or hunting rifles with a pistol is a losing proposition. And the officer may not have time to wait for backup. It could cost him or a citizen their life.
As has already been said, training is an important issue. I know that there are some "Rambo" types out there. But there are far more that would like to do their job, and go home to their families at the end of the shift without any extra holes in them. If you have ever been on the sharp end of the stick, it changes your perception somewhat.
thumbtack
Member
The Lone Ranger is the only masked good guy I know of and he came from Hollyweird.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
We are becoming a third world country - Status
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