A possible response to those souls pushing gun control.

[alan]

The following applies to legislators as well as private citizens.

If gun control proposals are so great, and gun control, when and where enacted is so effective, and or otherewise worthwhile having, then please explain to me how come Washington, D.C. is such a mess, including a quite recent declaration of a CRIME EMERGENCY there.

I might be missing a salient point somewhere, but there seems to be something of a disconnect, actually one hell of a disconnect, between theory and practice. How come?

Having put the question, say thanks for the attention, and indicate that you are now listening.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm sure the answer you will get is Washington, D.C.'s "excellent" gun control laws work except that the criminals are getting their guns from Virginia and other neighboring states.

Pilgrim

 

[Car Knocker]

Response: Then why aren't Virginia and the other neighboring states having a "CRIME EMERGENCY"?

 

[Live Free Or Die]

Response: Then why aren't Virginia and the other neighboring states having a "CRIME EMERGENCY"?

This isn't a very useful argument IMO. What if your counterpart in this debate proceeded to offer several valid reasons why violent crime in DC may be more widespread than in VA, despite the tougher gun laws -- more poverty, higher population density, and a thriving illegal drug trade? Would you be prepared to claim that VA's violent crime wouldn't increase with a preceeding increase in those three categories?

We like to berate the anti's for using all manner of logical fallicies and other lazy reasoning. We should be careful not to fall into the same trap.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Easy Pickin's

Criminals can ply their trade with impunity in DC and other "gun free" zones, that's why. If you made your living as a lumberjack, and they banned chain saws in your state, wouldn't you move to a state where you could still "pack" your chain saw?

Woody

Yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater should only result in a profusion of bullet holes in the screen where the villain last appeared! B.E.Wood

 

[Numinous]

This isn't a very useful argument IMO. What if your counterpart in this debate proceeded to offer several valid reasons why violent crime in DC may be more widespread than in VA, despite the tougher gun laws -- more poverty, higher population density, and a thriving illegal drug trade? Would you be prepared to claim that VA's violent crime wouldn't increase with a preceeding increase in those three categories?

How about this for a response:

Exactly.. crime isn't a gun issue, it's based on poverty, class imbalance, pop density, etc.. Stop attacking guns if they aren't the reasons for crime.

EDIT: You would also have a considerable about of statistics to back you up in this assertion.

 

[cuchulainn]

Live Free Or Die: more poverty, higher population density, and a thriving illegal drug trade? Would you be prepared to claim that VA's violent crime wouldn't increase with a preceeding increase in those three categories?

FWIW Virginia has plenty of places -- Richmond (south of the James), Petersburg, parts of Norfolk, etc. -- where D.C.-like demographics exist. Their murder rates are lower.

That said, I agree that the "Washington is bad because of gun control" argument is a post hoc fallacy.

In the USA, you can find states in all four categories.

Supports Us
High gun control / High homicide: D.C., Maryland
Low gun control / Low homicide: Maine, Vermont

Supports the Antis
High gun control / Low homicide: Hawaii, Massachusetts
Low gun control / High homicide: Mississippi, Alabama


State -- Homicide Rate per 100,000 Residents (all mechanisms)
(strictest gun control in red)

Maine -- 1.3
New Hampshire -- 1.55
Hawaii -- 1.59
Iowa -- 1.7
North Dakota -- 1.89
Vermont -- 1.94
South Dakota -- 2.09
Massachusetts -- 2.18
Idaho -- 2.42
Utah -- 2.47
Minnesota -- 2.57
Oregon -- 2.61
Rhode Island -- 2.69
Delaware -- 3.06
Connecticut -- 3.07
Wyoming -- 3.19
Wisconsin -- 3.56
Washington -- 3.57
Nebraska -- 3.62
Montana -- 4.03
Colorado -- 4.22
Kansas -- 4.44
Ohio -- 4.55
Kentucky -- 4.69
New Jersey -- 4.9
West Virginia -- 4.92
New York -- 5.02
Pennsylvania -- 5.47
Indiana -- 5.6
Missouri -- 5.66
Florida -- 5.9
Virginia -- 6.25
Oklahoma -- 6.38
Michigan -- 6.45
Texas -- 6.89
California -- 7.01
North Carolina -- 7.11
Arkansas -- 7.15
Alaska -- 7.24
Tennessee -- 7.5
Illinois -- 7.63
South Carolina -- 7.84
Nevada -- 8.17
Georgia -- 8.47
New Mexico -- 8.75
Arizona -- 8.92
Alabama -- 9.64
Maryland -- 10.11
Mississippi -- 10.55
Louisiana -- 13.39
District of Columbia -- 34.38

Source
CDC's WISQARs database
www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars

 

[Henry Bowman]

Cuchulainn, what those stats do not take into account is whether the homicides are predominantly (or at least significantly) "bad guy on good guy" crime or "bad guy on bad guy" crime. Increasing or decreasing gun control will have no real + or - effect of the latter.

The "crime emergency" we are hearing about in DC appears to be a lot of BG on GG crime. Here in Cincinnati, for example, we have seen a huge uptick in homicides, including since CCW rights were restored. But CCW by good guys doesn't matter. Almost all of the homicides are BG on BG, with only an occasional good guy (or child) hit unintentionally as collateral damage.

Hawaii is an island state that is difficult to access by privately boat or airplane. It is relatively difficult to smuggle in arms by commercial air. Mass. I do not have an explanation for.

 

[cuchulainn]

Henry Bowman: Cuchulainn, what those stats do not take into account is whether the homicides are predominantly (or at least significantly) "bad guy on good guy" crime or "bad guy on bad guy" crime.

Yes, I know. Those data don't take into account tons of things -- I'm simply illustrating that it's not as easy as looking at one state in isolation, be it D.C. or Hawaii. My only point is that pointing to D.C. is overly simplistic and a post hoc fallacy.

Homicide seems to be a regional thing mostly. The "best" states are in the Northeast and Midwest. The "worst" states are in the Southwest and Old South (the 11 Confederate states are all in the 20 "worst").

The question is what demographics the "best" states have in common and which the "worst" have in common. And it's a good idea to compare rates at the county/city level rather than the state level.

P.S. Comparing D.C. to any state is an apples/oranges fallacy too, since it is just a city.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Excellent point on the city/state thing. I heard, for example, that if the City of Detroit were given to Canada, their per capita homicide rate would double over night and Michigan's would drop to one of the best in the US. Also, "total violent crime" and "homicide" are two different things

Still, I believe that gun control only affects (increases) crime against innocent victims and has no effect on crime between bad guys.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm sure the answer you will get is Washington, D.C.'s "excellent" gun control laws work except that the criminals are getting their guns from Virginia and other neighboring states.

Pilgrim

Which of course raises the inevitable question, "Why don't Virginia and other neighboring states have the violent crime that D.C. does, even though they have even MORE guns?"

At that point, if you're White, the anti-gunner will mumble something about "Gunloons", "Dick Cheney" or "Karl Rove" and run away. If you're Black, the anti-gunner will shriek a racial slur and run away.

The only people more dishonest and full of mindless hatred than anti-gunners are Holocaust deniers... and not by all that much.

 

[Jeff]

How about this for a response:

Exactly.. crime isn't a gun issue, it's based on poverty, class imbalance, pop density, etc.. Stop attacking guns if they aren't the reasons for crime.

Exactly. It's that simple.

 

[alan]

Re all the arguments posted, including statistics and such, one factor remains.
CRIMINALS DO NOT OBEY THE LAW. Please excuse me for "shouting".

Weapons, in the hands of the law abiding do appear to act as a damper of sorts on some types of crime. The anti gunners don't agree, and try to explain away the facts and or obfuscate, while mass media do not pay much attention to the facts either.

Then we come to one last consideration, that being the fact that for reasons I do not understand, gun owners are often their own, worst enemies. Gun Rights are a civil right, one of the most important thereof, and it seems unfortunately, that many gun owners do not realize this, and or that they aren't sufficiently interested in preserving them to spend a little effort.

Unless this changes, we will loose this civil right, such losses being followed by the loss of others.

 

[cuchulainn]

Alan,

I don't disagree with anything you wrote in your last post.

I simply was pointing out that it's a poor argument to isolate D.C. and suggest it proves something about gun control. It's called "cherry picking" data. That's wrong no matter which side it comes from.

Please don't confuse our critiquing your argument with overall disagreement.

 

[alan]

cuchulainn:

My last post was #13, and reviewing it, I see neither inference to nor mention of Washington, DC or any city in particular.

I did mention DC at the beginning of this discussion, post #1 in the context of THEIR DECLARATION OF A CRIME EMERGENCY, and with respect to the fact of their gun laws, which essentially forbid the possession of firearms to the law abiding.