A question about the old manual safety/no manual safety-issue

[Telesway]

Sorry to bring up an old discussion but one thing about it has been bugging me lately:

I understand that taking off the thumb safety is a simple, small motion, easy to do even under stress. What I don't know is this:

Since there are so many things that can go wrong in a fight, you would want there to be as few things that can go wrong as possible, right? So, is the better trigger pull of guns equipped with manual safeties worth having the one more thing that can go wrong?


By the way, those who claim an absolute never-ever-fail 100% success rate at releasing the manual safety under stress during either a real fight or a very realistically simulated one [meaning a force-on-force drill where your practice partner is going pretty much full force with his strikes/stabs with a practice knife/attempts to take you to the ground so that your other practice partner can kick your head in] are either lying, haven't done enough FoF training, or are just very, very, very good at fighting.

I mean, if person X has been in one fight and has successfully disengaged the thumb safety in that fight, his record is 100%, but that, of course, does not provide quite enough empirical data to warrant a claim of a perfect 100% success rate for everyone who practices a lot with their manual safety-equipped guns. Nor is a 100% success rate during range practice count since the level of stress is significantly lower when the shooter is not under the threat of physical pain/injury.

Now, if person X does force-on-force training, say, once a week for two years and trains hard, meaning they get hurt when they mess up (think hard UFC/MMA-style sparring with airsoft/paintball guns and practice knives *), i.e. gets their lights punched/stomped out if they fail to disengage the safety during such training and they still have a perfect 100% track record with their manual safeties, then there is enough empirical data to back the claim.

*An example of the training scenario: you are packing your airsoft 1911 cocked and locked and in a similar holster in which you carry it every day, wearing similar clothes you wear every day, you have two friends and all of you wear mouth pieces , groin cups, and protective glasses (like swimming goggles or airsoft masks) possibly some kind of helmets too, and the drill consists of you trying to evade the other two until they attack and when they do, they attack full force and then you try to draw your gun and shoot them. This is to simulate a real-life scenario where two thugs first engage you verbally, say, ask if you got a light, then start demanding money, then attack you, which means you can't draw and shoot when you first see them or even when they first approach you.

So my question remains: is the better trigger pull worth +1 to the list of things that can, in some situations, go wrong? I'm only asking this again because I think it's an important question and, because of my own inexperience, I cannot sufficiently answer it.

Presently I favor guns with no manual safeties since I only have the one gun that doesn't have one so it's all I've practiced with (and I do practice almost daily though FoF drills are rarer... much too rare, to tell you the truth) but I am thinking about getting a nice 1911 at some point and then face the decision of which one to carry and which one would become my main training piece (since I dislike the idea of training equally with 2 different platforms, one gun will become a range-only gun and the other one my CCW).


Any opinions/ideas are more than welcome.

-Chris

 

[9mmepiphany]

It has been my experience that it is all a matter of training and how much time you are willing to devote to it.

Seeing how often folks disagree on when, in the presentation, the thumb safety should be disengaged on a 1911 type safety (frame mounted), there will always be valid safety arguments against it. When taught and practiced correctly, deactivation the thumb safety is an integral part of the presentation...which in itself then requires that the shooter have very good trigger finger discipline.

The other end of the spectrum is the DAO revolver, which is the most forgiving of lapses in trigger finger discipline. The tactile feedback of the DA trigger stroke provides a margin of safety to folks who inadvertently slip their finger onto the trigger before they are prepared to shoot. This is the basis of the LE requirement for issued handguns to be DAO or DA/SA. The requirement made the thumb safety of the SAO somewhat redundant.

In the middle is are the striker fired polymer handguns (sometimes referred to as DAO for contract pruposes) which usually lack a thumb safety or the tactile feedback of a true DA trigger stroke.

Your question is from the POV of which is easier to fire when you need to, the other side of that coin is which is to unintentionally fire when you don't intend it to. A side issue might be, which is easier to train, swiping off a thumb safety or keeping your finger off the trigger...as a corollary, which is more prone to fail under stress.

Bear in mind that many offerings are based on the needs of LE agencies, as they make up a large part of the market for handguns and have a huge affect of non-LE choices of handguns. LE platform safety needs differ quite a bit from that of an armed citizen carrying for personal defense

 

[ATLDave]

Telesway, you seem to be operating from the assumption that the only way to make a mistake in a fight is not to fire the gun. Especially for those of us who are civilians, the much more likely mistake is actually firing the gun when we should not. That's why I like safeties.

 

[beatledog7]

the much more likely mistake is actually firing the gun when we should not. That's why I like safeties.

Please tell us you're not suggesting we should rely on the safety to keep us from firing the gun when we should not fire the gun.

 

[ATLDave]

Should you rely on it? No. Should you rely on an airbag to prevent injury, and therefore go bouncing into telephone poles without care? No, but that doesn't mean I don't want an airbag. Do I plan on starting a fire in my house? No, but I have insurance nonetheless.

It never ceases to amaze me. In every field other than firearms, people seem to have little difficulty embracing the basic engineering/human-factors notion that redundant safety measures are good, especially if they mean that multiple errors are required before catastrophe ensues. Only on firearms discussion boards is this seen as embracing reckless behavior.

 

[JTQ]

As 9mmepiphany mentioned it is all about training.

The 1911 guys often wonder how the Glock guys can avoid shooting themselves (or somebody else) without a safety on their pistol. The Glock guys say it's a training issue.

The Glock guys think it's too hard to remember to flick off a thumb safety. The 1911 guys say it's a training issue.

Pick the gun you like, you'll most likely figure out the operating procedures.

Personally, with a 1911, I'm probably more likely to forget to pull the trigger, than take the safety off. My thumb is always on the thumb safety, my trigger finger spends as much time indexed on the slide (maybe more) as it does on the trigger.

Massad Ayoob's research indicates safety's have saved more officers lives than it has cost them lives.

American Handgunner, Mar/Apr 2011, pg 32
The Ayoob Files
Safety Catch; Lessons From Real World Gunfights
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMA11/

 

[BCRider]

As mentioned it's mostly about training and to a certain extent the mental and muscle abilities of the shooter.

A case in point. A guy shooting an IPSC stage tripped and fell while in mid run from one point to the other. While in mid air he set his 2011 based race gun back on Safe before he hit the ground and managed to remain in focus enough that the gun stayed pointed downrange the whole time.

On the other hand folks that talk about something happening to them where "it was all just a blur" consistently at sudden unexpected occurances should likely rely on a long DA style trigger pull.

I'm not being nasty about this either. It's my experience that there seems to be two ways for folks to react in an unexpected emergency. There's those for whom time seems to slow and everything is in crystal clear focus. Then there's others who just shut down and "ride it out" and say "it was just a blur" or "it was all over in a blink".

 

[pintler]

LE platform safety needs differ quite a bit from that of an armed citizen carrying for personal defense

I'm curious about your reasoning there, if you care to elaborate.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I touched on this in post #2, but didn't elaborate.

On a 1911 with which you propose to fight, the optimal time to take the safety off, during the draw from the holster, is when you rotate the muzzle from vertical to horizontal...as your gun reaches the Retention position

 

[9mmepiphany]

LE platform safety needs differ quite a bit from that of an armed citizen carrying for personal defense

I'm curious about your reasoning there, if you care to elaborate.

Sure. LEOs will often draw their sidearm without having to fire the shot. Presenting the weapon isn't indicative of an immediate intent to shoot...the threat need not be imminent.

They can be taking a suspect into custody and/or ordering their surrender. They will often have their gun out for extended periods while holding someone at gunpoint while awaiting backup officers.

Many officers will draw their weapons many times a night and never fire a round in anger thought their career. Plus most officers are not really knowledgeable about firearms in general and are unlikely to spend additional time (outside that mandated) to become proficient with it...that is what makes the 1911 a less than idea general issue LE weapon

 

[rcmodel]

guns equipped with manual safeties worth having the one more thing that can go wrong?

I have seen quite a few things go wrong with a 1911 in the last 50 years.

But the thumb safety is not one of them, unless somebody screwed with it that shouldn't have.

If you train & shoot 1911's, using the thumb safety is as natural as picking your nose without having to plan ahead.

rc

 

[Rail Driver]

I carry a 1911 cocked and locked every day. I also train/practice my draw stroke every day. I don't have to think to disengage the thumb safety on my 1911s, because the action has become muscle memory to the point that my thumb "swipes the safety" even if I'm working with a gun that doesn't have a manual safety (ie a Glock). I won't use firearms that have an "up to fire" safety.

 

[Bobson]

Since there are so many things that can go wrong in a fight, you would want there to be as few things that can go wrong as possible, right? So, is the better trigger pull of guns equipped with manual safeties worth having the one more thing that can go wrong?

This can't even be addressed without first assuming that handguns with manual safeties automagically have "better" triggers than handguns without manual safeties. That's a huge conclusion to jump to.

I suggest you evaluate your personal needs when trying to find the right firearm (which I assume is the point of this thread). There are some types of firearms which are typically carried in a state that I would never want to handle without a manual safety - namely, 1911s. There are other types in which I find a manual safety to be completely unnecessary, like DAO handguns, or DA/SA handguns with decockers (like the SIG P226, for example). Other firearms have necessary manual safeties (IMO), but they're mounted on the slide, which is just plain mediocre design (again, IMO). An example is the Beretta 92FS/M9.

Decide if you want a manual safety, simply based on the merits and detriments of a manual safety. Even before that, you should look at what type of firearm you want to be carrying. SAO, DA/SA, or DAO? Once you've determined that, it will be much easier to evaluate whether a manual safety is something you want your firearm to have. I wouldn't worry about evaluating a handgun primarily on whether or not it houses a manual safety. And remember, you can always have a gunsmith rework the trigger of any firearm down the road.

 

[justice06rr]

I'm sure we've seen the vid of that LEO who shot himself in a classroom full of kids while drawing his Glock. And thats supposed to be a trained professional (no offense).

I've also seen a civilian during an IDPA match shoot himself in the leg while drawing/holstering a 1911. So it can go both ways. I personally train with safeties and have no issues with it. Kinda like talking your seatbelt off before getting out of your car.

Go with whichever you're comfortable with. A DA/SA pistol without safety is a good choice here, like a 92FS or a USP , and some have the manual safety option

 

[Drail]

Yup. Safeties are not a problem. Poor training is a problem.

 

[coolluke01]

Many officers will draw their weapons many times a night and never fire a round in anger thought their career. Plus most officers are not really knowledgeable about firearms in general and are unlikely to spend additional time (outside that mandated) to become proficient with it...that is what makes the 1911 a less than idea general issue LE weapon

I would question this statement. I know officers that have Never drawn their weapon. I would actually say I know few that have.

Presenting the weapon isn't indicative of an immediate intent to shoot...the threat need not be imminent.

I have been taught in the academy that drawing a weapon should only be done when you have the intent to shoot. You may not need to, but the situation would have to be one that could very well end up with you shooting.
Drawing a weapon is the highest level in use of force. It is on the same level as if you were to draw your weapon and fire. Use of force starts at verbal commands, soft hand tactics, intermediate weapons, advanced weapons. You had better not point your weapon at anyone you would not be right in shooting. This idea of drawing to scare or even shooting to wound is not right. Cops would be severely reprimanded to fired if they ever did anything like that

In regard to safeties. I shoot Steel action and IDPA. Nearly every time someone starts the stage and forgets to flip the safety when the buzzer goes off. They have been shooting these matches for years and every once and a while they forget in the excitement. Out of the 20-30 people it happens almost every time once.
And they always do the same thing. They stop and look at their gun and then remember they forgot the safety.
There are some that I have seen that have never done it. But i've only been shooting with this group for the last year, so I don't know if they have done it in the past.

 

[LibShooter]

Right now I'm moving from a DA revolver to an autoloader. After a long discussion with a LGS owner I know and trust, he suggested a DAO pistol. He said the transition will be easier.

I'm wondering if I'll shoot myself in the butt the first time I draw.

 

[beatledog7]

Quote:
the much more likely mistake is actually firing the gun when we should not. That's why I like safeties.

Please tell us you're not suggesting we should rely on the safety to keep us from firing the gun when we should not fire the gun.

Should you rely on it? No. Should you rely on an airbag to prevent injury, and therefore go bouncing into telephone poles without care? No, but that doesn't mean I don't want an airbag. Do I plan on starting a fire in my house? No, but I have insurance nonetheless.

Your initial statement is troubling in that it implies a deliberate but unwarranted attempt to pull the trigger that is foiled only by a manual safety. Such an event should not happen. It means that the shooter's poor decision was bailed out by the mechanism.

I'm not opposed to manual safeties, but if one chooses the manual safety route so it can stop an ill-advised trigger pull, that person should consider not carrying.

 

[chhodge69]

is the better trigger pull of guns equipped with manual safeties worth having the one more thing that can go wrong?

THAT is a very personal decision, and for me the answer is YES. I like redundant independent safeties on my guns, both the human and mechanical kind. Brains, routines, gear and mechanics all play a role and reinforce one another.

My safeties are not a crutch for bad habits. They are part of a plan because I know I will make mistakes. A man who thinks he can't make a mistake has already done so.

edit: if you're worried about discharging on the draw you're doing something very wrong... get some instruction!

 

[Levan9X19]

two of the most popular handguns in the world, Sig P series and Glock don't have manual safeties

 

[9mmepiphany]

I would question this statement. I know officers that have Never drawn their weapon. I would actually say I know few that have.

I do too. What question do you have about my street experience in 28 years or my observations?

Note that I didn't say all, I said many. I worked in a medium sized department of about 1500 officers

I have been(1) taught in the academy that drawing a weapon should only be done when you have the intent to shoot. (2)You may not need to, but the situation would have to be one that could very well end up with you shooting.
Drawing a weapon is the highest level in use of force. It is on the same level as if you were to draw your weapon and fire. Use of force starts at verbal commands, soft hand tactics, intermediate weapons, advanced weapons. (3)You had better not point your weapon at anyone you would not be right in shooting. This idea of drawing to scare or even shooting to wound is not right. Cops would be severely reprimanded to fired if they ever did anything like that

(1) What kind of training did you complete? You aren't posting as if you are in LE
(2) The bolded portion isn't counter to what I have written
(3) That isn't what I wrote

In regard to safeties. I shoot Steel action and IDPA. Nearly every time someone starts the stage and forgets to flip the safety when the buzzer goes off. They have been shooting these matches for years and every once and a while they forget in the excitement. Out of the 20-30 people it happens almost every time once.
And they always do the same thing. They stop and look at their gun and then remember they forgot the safety.
There are some that I have seen that have never done it. But i've only been shooting with this group for the last year, so I don't know if they have done it in the past.

I would say that this is an example of folks who need to get some professional instruction.

In a class I recently attended, they taught the correct technique during the first day and I don't think anyone fumbled with the thumb safety after the second day...this included the shooters who were new to the 1911. They didn't even have a problem when in the Shoot House or during the Head-to-Head shoot off

 

[mljdeckard]

I like to think I have formed a more global understanding of handguns in general. For the vast majority of guns, I can pick up a strange gun, know exactly what model it is, and how the safety works, if it has one. I have carried extensively different styles, a Sig de-cocker, a Beretta slide mounted, A Glock, and a 1911 frame-mounted. I've never given it much concern. You train to run the gun. Now that I have settled on a 1911 and I doubt I'll ever change, as mentioned above, when the gun goes horizontal, the safety comes off. When it is lowered, it goes back on.

I can see why institutions that train a large number of people want the least complicated gun. That doesn't mean it is the best for everyone.

 

[Telesway]

edit: if you're worried about discharging on the draw you're doing something very wrong... get some instruction!

Nope, that's not what I'm worried about. What I'm worried about is that I will find that when I need the gun to go "bang", it doesn't because I, for one reason or the other, failed to disengage the manual safety (be it by forgetting to do so or actually physically failing to do so due to poor grip, injured thumb [both of my thumbs have been broken during force-on-force sparring], or some other reason).

I'm curious: what kind of training do you guys, who carry manual safety-equipped guns, actually do to become proficient enough with it to have as close to a 100% success rate as possible in disengaging the safety in an actual fight?

I'm always looking for more ideas concerning force-on-force drills. And I'm not really talking about an IPSC-type thing or a gun vs. gun drill but, rather, one that involves hard physical contact between trainees resembling a real fight (i.e. a scenario like the training drill I described in my first post).

A question: How often do you guys do this kind of IPSC/MMA "cross-training"? What kind of protective gear do you use if any?

In one group I trained with, we only had groin cups and mouthguards and sometimes MMA gloves but apart from that there was no padding, no helmets. Oh, and goggles (the type that doesn't dig into your skin if you get punched).

I know I'm still a newbie (at least relatively speaking) and hence fumbled a lot with my draw, especially when one guy was trying to wrestle me to the ground and another was attacking with strikes and/or a practice knife and I know I'm not experienced enough to yet decide "for life" what kind of a gun would work best for me. That's why I started this thread; to get a clearer idea of whether I should try to transition from DAO (Glock/XD) to a gun with a manual safety.

This kind of training at least taught me that it's not always a good idea to "take one" in order to get a successful draw since I got "stabbed" a lot of times doing that (meaning I thought the guy was unarmed but instead of getting punched/kicked, I got stabbed with a practice knife)


Edit: yeah, I'm looking at this from a civilian/self-defence point of view but of course any and all LE/military-view points are greatly appreciated as well. Always a good idea to broaden my (as of now still relatively narrow) horizons.

 

[ATLDave]

Your initial statement is troubling in that it implies a deliberate but unwarranted attempt to pull the trigger that is foiled only by a manual safety.

That's not what I said, but you can read it however you want.

 

[coolluke01]

9mm.

I attended the Hibbing MN LE academy. I am not currently LE as I decided to continue on in the family business.

It was not my intent to correct or disagree with your experience. I did question one of the statements but only to further clarify. I didn't know you were coming from a position of experience. I have been thinking about this recently since reading reports of the LE's shooting that boy in the school. Many of the comments about this have been saying the cops should have wounded or tried to scare him with their weapons firing warning shots and the like. Being sensitive to this I read

Presenting the weapon isn't indicative of an immediate intent to shoot...the threat need not be imminent.

as someone saying that drawing your weapon is not a use of force and cops do it all the time when they don't really need to. I sounded like you were saying cops could pull a gun on anyone any time they want with no threat of danger. I can see that may have been reading into this a bit, but that's what it seemed like at the time.

As far as training. Many of these guys have had formal training with the guns they have. But when that buzzer goes off it can happen. I would agree that with sufficient training you should be able to eliminate most of that kind of error. But can training ever be 100% effective?