A Rational Discussion of Political Correctness

[longeyes]

Sorry, it's not tyranny for the "head of the local social criticism committee" to object to your ideas and words and attempt to shame you socially.

No, tyranny occurs when you find your behavior sorely restricted by aforesaid committee's plenary powers.

When you finally find tyranny, let me know; I want to be prepared.

 

[Waitone]

Those who control the language control the culture.

PC is an attempt to control language.

PC limits free speech.

Hate speech criminalizes free speech.

Neither PC nor hate speech has any place in a free society.

 

[cuchulainn]

longeyes: No, tyranny occurs when you find your behavior sorely restricted by aforesaid committee's plenary powers.

Well, if the "head of the local social criticism committee" has some sort of official powers over you -- as opposed to mere peer pressure, ridicule, shame and public scorn -- then yes, he'd be venturing into the behavior of a tyrant.

I've said all along that some PC-ism is tyranny, but some isn't.

Some PC-ism is simply an expression of opinion (an opinion that I disagree with, but nonetheless just an opinion).

Waitone: Neither PC nor hate speech has any place in a free society.

I agree with you when the PC-ism crosses the line into overt control like laws, speech codes, etc.

The problem is when the PC-ism is limited to ridicule and scorn -- then it's just an opinion. How do we say opinions we don't like have no place in a free society?

 

[Werewolf]

Um, no. Public ridicule and scorn are not tyranny.

The human animal is a social one. Being social means that social pressures, peer pressures are a more powerful tool for controlling behavior than any other. PC uses social pressures to control behavior against the controlled's will. That is tyranny.

What makes PC so evil is that more often than not a target of the PC control techniques often is not even aware of it because the PC folk use positive spin so very effectively.

See, folk's, that's what I'm talking about when I said Anti-Political Correctness has become a form of Political Correctness. The tactics are the same -- but in negative image.

Intent matters. The PC crowd is all about control. The anti-PC crowd is all about personal freedom. Tactics are irrelevant. Intent matters.

...I'm still curious.

What Oleg does with his board is his business - it's his house. Is he being PC with his rules - not in my opinion. He sets the standard. Don't like the rules go somewhere else.

Unlike the High Road which we all have the option of visiting or not PC is so pervasive in our society today that avoding it is no longer an option. The power of PC hangs like a poisonous green fog over our society and is everywhere. We can no longer avoid it. We can however point out where the cloud is thickest and avoid it, try to make it go away, or wade in with our gas masks on and fans a'blowin'.

 

[cuchulainn]

Werewolf: The human animal is a social one. Being social means that social pressures, peer pressures are a more powerful tool for controlling behavior than any other. PC uses social pressures to control behavior against the controlled's will. That is tyranny.

What makes PC so evil is that more often than not a target of the PC control techniques often is not even aware of it because the PC folk use positive spin so very effectively.

versus

Werewolf: Intent matters. The PC crowd is all about control. The anti-PC crowd is all about personal freedom. Tactics are irrelevant. Intent matters.

You're trying to have it both ways:

• In one breath you argue that the tactic of social pressure is tyranny (indeed evil).
  
• In the next breath you argue that the tactic of social pressure doesn't matter if the intent is one you agree with.

Werewolf: What Oleg does with his board is his business

Thank you for answering my question

 

[Werewolf]

You're trying to have it both ways:

* In one breath you argue that the tactic of social pressure is tyranny (indeed evil).
* In the next breath you argue that the tactic of social pressure doesn't matter if the intent is one you agree with.

I suppose so.

But then I am not bothered by that at all.

As I said:

INTENT MATTERS!

 

[cuchulainn]

Werewolf: I suppose so.

But then I am not bothered by that at all.

As I said:

INTENT MATTERS!

OK, let's see if I've got this strait:

• PC people are tyrants and evil when they use social pressure against you -- because their intent is to change ("control") your behavior with shame and ridicule.
  
• However, you are justified when you use social pressure against them -- even though your intent is to change ("control") their behavior with shame and ridicule (calling them tyrants and evil).

I'm honestly not trying to put words in your mouth. But it really does seem like that's what you're saying.

 

[Werewolf]

I'm honestly not trying to put words in your mouth. But it really does seem like that's what you're saying.

Then you're not paying attention.

If there were no PC crowd there'd be no need for an anti-PC crowd.

The PC folks want to control how people think.

Anti-PC folks just want the PC folks to go away and let people think however they wish. But since they won't go away someone needs to point them out to those who otherwise aren't even aware they are being manipulated. If that makes me a tyrant then so be it. At least when my purpose is fullfilled I'll go peacefully into that good night. I doubt if the same can be said about the PC crowd.

INTENT MATTERS!

 

[cuchulainn]

Werewolf: Anti-PC folks just want the PC folks to go away and let people think however they wish. But since they won't go away someone needs to point them out to those who otherwise aren't even aware they are being manipulated.

Right, you're saying that ridicule and scorn = tyranny and evil … except when you do it with good motive.

You're using ridicule and scorn in an attempt to make society better (rid it of PC thought) -- much the way they use ridicule and scorn in an attempt to make society better (rid it of racist/sexist thought).

You're just as much a thought policeman as they are -- you even assume people are unaware of being manipulated by PC ideas the same way they assume people are unaware of being influenced by sexist/racist ideas.

You even claim your tactic is justified by a good "INTENT"–- just like they claim.

You, Werewolf, are a bona fide, certified PCer.

 

[AStone]

Deleted. (The server was stuck for a while, resulting in a double tap. Everytime I clicked post, it just spun, but one extra copy of this made it through. I'll leave the version below...)

 

[Werewolf]

Right, you're saying that ridicule and scorn = tyranny and evil … except when you do it with good motive.

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with that at all.

You're using ridicule and scorn in an attempt to make society better (rid it of PC thought) -- much the way they use ridicule and scorn in an attempt to make society better (rid it of racist/sexist thought).

Whatever works to make them shut up and stop.

You're just as much a thought policeman as they are -- you even assume people are unaware of being manipulated by PC ideas the same way they assume people are unaware of being influenced by sexist/racist ideas.

Horsepucky. The anti-PC crowd isn't trying to control anyone's thought. We just want the PC crowd to stop. Sexist, racist, or whatever the flavor of the day is. They may not be mainstream, acceptable, moral or otherwise for some folk but the last time I looked this is the United States and we're still free to believe what ever we wish no matter how stupid or immoral. Until those thoughts turn to action and become illegal it is OK to have them. Trouble is the PC crowd doesn't understand that. In their infinite wisdom they - like all leftists - imagine that their way is the best way and they can decide for others how they shall live, what their moral values should be and how they should think and even speak.

Well that's just plain wrong in any society that professes to believe in freedom of thought. It seems some understand that and some don't.

The anti-PC crowd isn't trying to control anyone. They don't even really want the PC crowd to shut up they just want them to stop using positive spin, emotion, fear, peer pressure and all the other tactics they use to influence those more easily influced that way than by fact and logic.

But they will not stop so fire must be fought with fire. Simple as that.

OH - and just because one is anti-PC doesn't mean one is sexist, racist, homophobic, anti retard or any of the other things that YOU and the rest of the PC crowd claim. We simply want all you thought police to go away - hell - we'd be happy if you'd just shut the up! Is that ad hominen enough for ya?

You even claim your tactic is justified by a good "INTENT"–- just like they claim.

It is and so is theirs. The difference is I'm right and they're wrong.

You, Werewolf, are a bona fide, certified PCer.

Ahhhhh.... Well if using the tactics of the PC crowd (which I do not admit to but it's not worth arguing about) makes me one of 'em then so be it.

I prefer to believe it makes me an anti-PC'r and it seems that more and more people are waking up to the dangers the PC thought police represent so I'm not alone.

Only time will tell which side will win out.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Political correctness has gone far beyond just "peer pressure". Just try and make a remark that can be construed or cast as non-PC at work and watch the fireworks. You'd be lucky if you get to keep your job. Why? Because PC has become the law of the land.

Ever took a "harassment" course? Ever heard of "hostile environment"? How much time do you spend at work every day? Eight, nine, ten hours? Taking into account sleeping time, your freedom of speech is suspended the majority of your waking lifetime.

If that is not tyrrany, I wonder what is.

What a circuitous way to strangle the First Amendment. Yosif Vissarionovich would be truly proud with his contemporary disciples.

 

[AStone]

You, Werewolf, are a bona fide, certified PCer.

Ah, finally, we get to the part where the gauntlet is thrown.

At least we can say, this thread about PC is not PC.

And no one is being PC towards those who seem to be PC on a thread about PC.

Sabe?

Let's see: will he who is accused of being PC on a thread about PC be PC?

Wait...I'm getting confused...would that be PC or anti-PC?

Or anti-anti-PC?

Oh, the recursion of it all.
I'm so confused.

But maybe I'm just an idiot.

"No, sir," said the feel-gooder, "you are NOT an idiot;
you are only intellectually challenged."

 

[cuchulainn]

Werewolf: In their infinite wisdom they - like all leftists - imagine that their way is the best way and they can decide for others how they shall live, what their moral values should be and how they should think and even speak.

Well that's just plain wrong in any society that professes to believe in freedom of thought.

Exactly. That's my point. By your own admission, Werewolf, you support using their tactics to shame people away from PC moral values.

You want to shame them into to not expressing PC thoughts ("Just shut up").

You're behaving no differently than they do.

We cannot -- MUST NOT -- stoop to their tactics. Then we become no better than them.

CAnnoneer: Political correctness has gone far beyond just "peer pressure".

*Sigh* Yes -- for the fourth or fifth time -- I understand that. But not all PC-ism is tyranny. Some is; some isn't.

 

[Herself]

Just as long as we do not mistake an employer's right to set rules of conduct for employees for "tyrrany." Employer's paying you to do a job -- his way.. If you don't like that, get another job!

Yes, yes, people are preposterously thin-skinned these days and employers are very wary of being sued. But don't blame them. They've got to work within the legal framework they are handed.

Quite a lot of the PC-ness in the workplace came about because people were unwilling or unable to behave civilly. Act like kids, get treated like kids. Perhaps if more people started acting like adults, we'd have a bit less mindless, reflexive PC behavior -- and a bit less of the equally mindless and often vulgar reaction to it.

--Herself

 

[RealGun]

A good example

We had a recent example of PC in action. Something absolutely intuitive was treated as completely unacceptable. Tempering comments were generally ignored. The unmentionable was mentioned.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/30/bennett.comments/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Congressional Democrats blasted former Education Secretary William Bennett on Thursday for saying that aborting "every black baby in this country" would reduce the crime rate, and demanded their Republican counterparts do the same.

"This is precisely the kind of insensitive, hurtful and ignorant rhetoric that Americans have grown tired of," said Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Illinois.

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan told reporters on Friday that President Bush "believes the comments were not appropriate."

Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down.

"That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said.

 

[Herself]

Yeah, real high class: it takes a smooth operator to sound pro-abortion and racist in one sentence. And in a world of sensationalized journalism, that's exactly the sort of thing reporters dream of hearing from a politician.

Bennett's statement is a prime example of incivilty. It's not suitable for table talk. And it contains an unprovable assertion. It's also probably an untrue assertion: crime rates are actually pretty constant when racially-mixed and unmixed populations of otherwise similar demographics are compared.

I'm reminded of another Cabinet member telling an off-color joke on a campaign or press bus, and getting burned by it. Look, if you wouldn't be comfortable telling it to your mother, don't say it in public! How difficult is that?

--Herself

 

[RealGun]

It's also probably an untrue assertion: crime rates are actually pretty constant when racially-mixed and unmixed populations of otherwise similar demographics are compared.

I didn't take this assertion seriously at all. I guess I could hope that it was meant as tongue-in-cheek.

 

[cuchulainn]

Herself: Just as long as we do not mistake an employer's right to set rules of conduct for employees for "tyrrany." Employer's paying you to do a job -- his way.. If you don't like that, get another job

Good point. If we start regulating employers against PC policies, then we're behaving just like the PCers. Yes, a lot of the verboten behavior ought to be addressed by simple maturity. The problem is that some employers do go too far with PC rules (which, yes, is their right).

The question is how -- and whether -- we address their behavior.

We ought not regulate against PC behavior (talk about burning the village to save it).

We ought not use the PCers’ tactics of shame and social intimidation right back at them (as Werewolf suggests we should).

But we should criticize and expose employers’ out-of-line PC rules. The problem is that there’s often a fine line between legitimate criticism/exposure of dislikable ideas/behavior -- and illegitimate PC tactics.

Target was out of line (but, yes, within its rights) when it forbid employees to say, “Merry Christmas.” Target should have been subject to public criticism.

RealGun: We had a recent example of PC in action. Something absolutely intuitive was treated as completely unacceptable. Tempering comments were generally ignored. The unmentionable was mentioned

Yes, Bennett was a victim of political opportunism fueled by Political Correctness.

On the other hand, as Herself has pointed out, he was pretty stupid to say it. It is unprovable. It is probably not true. Thus, it unnecessarily stirred bad feelings.

On the third hand, his critics should have realized he just made a stupid mistake while speaking off the cuff. Their teapot-tempest was out of line.

 

[RealGun]

he was pretty stupid to say it. It is unprovable. It is probably not true. Thus, it unnecessarily stirred bad feelings.

But that is PC at its finest.

 

[cuchulainn]

RealGun: But that is PC at its finest.

Yes, I acknowledged that by saying Bennett was a victim of political opportunism and by saying his critics should have realized he simply made a stupid remark off the cuff.

Nonetheless, he was stupid to say it. People have always twisted their political opponents' statements, and they always will. That is not a product of PC-ism because it existed long before PC-ism. If you're going to be a public political figure, you've got to watch what you say. Bennett should have known better.

I'd be willing to bet that if there were no such thing as the PC movement that political opportunists still would have jumped all over his statement.

That’s what I’m getting at when I say there’s a difference between being politically correct and being politically smart.

 

[RealGun]

Yes, I acknowledged that by saying Bennett was a victim of political opportunism and by saying his critics should have realized he simply made a stupid remark off the cuff.

Nonetheless, he was stupid to say it. People have always twisted their political opponents' statements, and they always will. That is not a product of PC-ism because it existed long before PC-ism. If you're going to be a public political figure, you've got to watch what you say. Bennett should have known better.

I'd be willing to bet that if there were no such thing as the PC movement that political opportunists still would have jumped all over his statement.

That’s what I’m getting at when I say there’s a difference between being politically correct and being politically smart.

But why do we insist that Bennett wasn't absolutely right? I think we are avoiding reality, or do we need another two year, multi million dollar government study to declare something that everyone already understands.

 

[Hollowdweller]

While I think that we all should try to be polite to other people as best we can, the only time it really enters into my world is when I hear people on discussion boards or talk radio go on about it.

I think that the whole PC issue is a straw man for the right to use to make the voting public feel like minorities are getting special treatment, rather than a disproportionate share of prison cells and death sentences

 

[cuchulainn]

RealGun: But why do we insist that Bennett wasn't absolutely right?

Eh? Why? At best, his comment is worthy of a shrug ... at worst, it's worthy of rolled eyes. Debating it's truth seems like a red herring to me when compared to the underlying issue of crime in the Black community.

RealGun: I think we are avoiding reality

Yes, as a society, we are ignoring reality ... and that's why we should get beyond the red herring of Bennett's abortion comment. Shrug, roll our eyes and focus back on the important issue of addresssing crime in the Black community.

See, that's another reason his statement was stupid -- he set up a pointless red herring debate that distracted from the real issue of crime in the Black community.

 

[HankB]

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS: Code words used by overly empowered liberals to mask their intolerance for diversity of thought, and hostility towards (and suppression of) the free expression of opposing viewpoints.