Surrender gun to LEO when identified as CCW during stop?

[noops]

So in the last couple of days, we've had a couple of interesting threads about 1) when and how to identify yourself as CCW to a LEO and 2) would you give your CCW to a LEO if he/she needed it. Those threads are here:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=266735 (Identifying CCW to LEO)
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=267054 (surrendering gun to unarmed LEO)

This lead me to want to ask another question that's sort of related to both.

If you get pulled over and ID yourself as a CCW holder and currently have a gun on your person, what do yo do if the LEO asks for the gun? Someone in those threads said a LEO said "For your and my safety" that he wanted the gun.

To me, handling a gun at that point is bad enough, but doing it with an armed, maybe nervous LEO seems to add a lot of danger to the mix.

My inclination is to say, "Well, handling a gun in this manner is dangerous. Unless I'm being charged, I'd like to just sit here with my hands on the wheel." Something like that, although find the most non-confrontational way as possible to say it. Really, I'm not trying to antagonize the coppers. I just a) don't want to handle a gun in that situation and b) don't feel alright about handing over my gun to someone I don't know. I regularly carry a P7, and it's a pretty rare gun. I don't feel confident that some random officer (or anyone for that matter) is familiar with a P7. Even more so with my Glock 26, which has no manual safety.

If you do hand them the weapon, do you administratively unload? Doing that in a car is risky business. Doing administrative actions with an armed LEO watching you seems even more dangerous. But never hand someone a loaded gun...So take it out and hand it over?

Thoughts?

Noops

 

[Headless]

I suppose the real question is - are you legally required to surrender your legally carried concealed gun during a traffic stop if asked.
If you're not legally required to, i don't see why you should.

 

[Art Eatman]

In Texas, for me and several other folks with whom I've talked, the cops are uninterested after seeing the CHL. I had one ask me where mine was; "In the console." He grinned. Same deal, basically, with a deputy in Thomasville, Georgia.

I dunno. If I were asked to give the LEO my pistol, I guess I'd ask, "How do you want to do this?" He's the one who's twitchy, not me; I take guns for granted and I'm not particularly excitable, anyway.

My usual deal, I guess: I work at common sense, courtesy and politeness. My batting average of success is too high to want to quit now.

, Art

 

[David904]

If the officer decided to disarm me, I would identify the type of firearm it is; and then I would ask them if they have ever handled one of that type before. I would then ask them how would they like to proceed and comply with their orders - e x a c t l y.

Some cops don't feel safe having the object of their official attention armed. OK. Here's an opportunity to conduct yourself in a manner that is professional, safe, respectful, and brings credit on the rest of us gun owners and CCW holders. I personally don't like having to disarm, but I can understand the concerns of the officer, and respect his or her desire to be able to go home and hold his wife and kids at the end of his shift. The more positive interactions the antis or fence-sitter types of officers have with us, the better the relations will be.

Just my .02

 

[Headless]

If you were going to do harm to the officer, why would you inform him you even have a CCW and if you do, why admit a gun is in the car? Lying would give you a much better chance at surprise. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a cop to be nervous about me shooting him if i just volunteered that i'm carrying legally. The cop is at a massive advantage in a traffic stop. He stands behind your left shoulder, he's able to easily get behind your entire car for cover and he can see your hands, the dash, center console, etc. at all times through your back and front window. You're sitting down, belted in and have to shoot behind you to hit him -- assuming you can easily draw at ALL while sitting in a car (it's not easy, usually.) If a cop was so jumpy about me legally carrying a gun that he wanted to disarm me during a stop for something as unremarkable as a speeding ticket, i would become very nervous and have serious misgivings about giving him the gun. If he believes you may harm him with a gun after you've told him you have it, why wouldn't they continue to believe you may harm him and/or have ANOTHER gun on your person that you didn't tell them about? Handing an unreasonably jumpy person my loaded firearm is not my idea of a good idea, badge or not. That said, if he had a good reason for it, ("this car is marked as stolen, sir!") or something along those lines, i could understand him wanting to do so.

 

[Lurper]

You should check your state laws. Some states require you to surrender the firearm if asked to do so. Some states require you to tell the officer if you have a permit, others do not.
In AZ, the police are within their right to ask for the firearm even though state law does not require you to disclose that you are a permit holder or armed.
Seems common sense to me to hand over the weapon if the officer asks for it. Why ask for trouble?

 

[sojournerhome]

My CHL Instructor talked about this

Hello,

My CHL instructor covered this in his class.

Leave your hands on the steering wheel and say,"Officer, I want to assist in in the performance of your duties. Please instruct me on how you wish me to proceed with your request."

 

[Headless]

Seems common sense to me to hand over the weapon if the officer asks for it. Why ask for trouble?

If the officer is within his legal rights to ask me to surrender the firearm, i'd gladly surrender it. Otherwise, I don't give people i don't know my loaded firearm in general, unless it's necessary. Badge or not, people are human and there's no telling if that officer is familiar with the firearm you are carrying.

Not to mention, if it's not within his rights to ask for it, there's no reason to provide it or for him to ask for it. This goes along with cops asking you where you're going, where you've been, etc. during a stop for a brake light being out. I'm not legally required to tell them how I just left my uncle jed's where we drank half a glass of wine and ate some steak and now i'm going home to have sex with my wife, etc. I'd respond quite politely that i don't wish to discuss my personal life. In the case of an officer asking for my weapon...

Reading the florida statutes at
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes....HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0790->Section 08#0790.08
It appears that an officer only takes posession of weapons during an arrest; anyone know if there are other statutes governing this particular action? I would inquire if i was under arrest and if there was a reason why i was being disarmed before even considering surrendering the gun, given my current knowledge of the statutes. I will say i hadn't considered this scenario before so i'm interested to hear people's opinions and perhaps get some input from people on the legality's involved.

 

[bensdad]

This has been discussed here and on other boards. I agree (for the most part) with Headless. If it's a routine stop (speeding, blew a stop sign, etc.), and I told the officer I had a firearm, then why do they need it? If I meant to do harm I would have kept it a secret.

In fact, if the cop still wants my gun in that situation, then THEY make ME nervous. I want THEIR gun.

If there's a ND with MY gun, who's fault is it? You think the cop, who qualifies once or twice a year with his Glock, knows anything about my Daewoo? You think he's gonna fess up about how the ND really happened?

Also a bit of a "slippery slope" possibility here. If they can take it, how long can they keep it? My car is pretty dangerous too, are they gonna take that away for the time being? I don't think it says, "...shall not be infringed, unless a twitchy rookie cop feels threatened by your honesty."

 

[Bailey Guns]

In Colorado the statutes allow a peace officer to temporarily disarm a permit holder while he/she conducts business with the permit holder.

I don't know too many officers who will ask for someone's legally carried firearm during a routine contact (ie: traffic stop, etc.).

The safety conscious officer would probably want to relieve a permit holder of a weapon during a higher risk type stop - for example the permit holder matches the description of a person who's committed a crime and the officer is checking that person out.

Regardless of the reason, state law allows it. How the officer actually takes control of the firearm is going to be up to that officer.

I teach my students, when asked by an officer if they have a firearm either on them or in their car, to always respond with something like, "Officer, I have a concealed handgun permit. My gun is (gives location) and my permit is in my (wallet, purse, etc) along with my ID." I also instruct them to always keep their hands visible, preferably still if possible, and wait for instructions from the officer.

 

[Lurper]

Like CO, AZ allows the officer to take possesion of the weapon. We teach students to present their permit with their license. More often than not, the officer will thank you and not ask for your weapon. However, there have been cases where the officer disassembled the weapon and told the owner not to reassemble it until after the officer drove away.

 

[noops]

However, there have been cases where the officer disassembled the weapon and told the owner not to reassemble it until after the officer drove away.

I think I'd have a real problem with this one. I don't want some ham-handed person trying to disassemble my guns. Not that any officer is ham handed by nature, but if I see the spring plug off my 1911 flying through the air, or he/she damages my P7 because they have never handled these types of firearms, I'm going to feel pretty annoyed. How many firearms are they gonna know how to break down SAFELY. I've trained lots on different guns and I think I could safely breakdown:

Most HK's, M9/92fs, Sig classic/P-Series, glocks, 1911's, XD's, a few others maybe. That leaves an awefully large number of guns that I may even have fired, but have NO IDEA how to field strip. That seems like a really bad idea to me.

 

[Biker]

I've handed my shooter over a few times. Folks that look like me make cops nervous to begin with and I don't like bein' around nervous cops. I smile, speak politely and comply. Somehow, I think this really bugs 'em.
Fortunately, in my neck o' the woods, the cops around here are pretty down home. However, if I hit Boise or Portland, the rules change and I conduct myself accordingly.
Bottom line? A guy can bark at a cop all he wants but the cop is the one with the teeth. I don't like being bit.

Biker

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I'd surrender it if necessary but I worry about the handling. Seems like asking for a ND and possibly an injury or death over a traffic ticket while they are jacking around with the slide on your XD not realizing the grip safety needs to be depressed unlike their Glock. They aren't all gun folks.

 

[starshooter231]

From my personal experience

I was "pulled over" just a few weeks back and here in Michigan we are required to notify the LEO that we have our CPL (ccw) and we are carrying. After telling him "that I have my CPL and I was armed" he said "huh". "I have my CCW and I have a firearm on me" He said "Oh, Okay". Now mind you I made sure both of my hands stayed on the wheel until told otherwise by him.
So he asks me if he could search my vehicle I told him not a problem. I stepped out of the vehicle placed both my hands on the door (not near my gun). He asked if I had my permit I said yes. He asked me to take it out I told him it was in the pocket by my gun, he asked if I minded him taking it out I told him not a problem. He checked it then ASKED if he could disarm me " for his safety and mine" go ahead. He locked it in his car while he searched my vehicle. When he was done searching it he opened up his car and gave it back to me. Pointing the muzzle first at him then at me. I will ALWAYS turn my firearm over to a LEO without bitching about it, but he(she) will disarm me if they want it. I am not getting shot because somebody came upon the situation and thought that I was "pulling" a gun on a LEO and they "thought" it was a good idea.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Pointing the muzzle first at him then at me.

But it was for his safety and yours.

 

[noops]

Pointing the muzzle first at him then at me.

This bothers me the more I think about it. This cop made the entire situation more dangerous.

Do our rights to carry (as properly licensed) somehow change in the presence of a police officer? Sure if you've committed or are suspected of a crime that might contravene the legal ownership of a gun. But for going 5 miles an hour over, I don't think so. And while I'm always deferential, the officer isn't searching my car either. Why doesn't the officer disarm "for his and my safety?"

Noops

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

i think its best to know the state law where you are at before you make this decision. in Texas if you fail to inform the officer you are carrying, the first time it is a license suspension, and future repeat offenses can get you charged with a Class B Misdemeanor. if you fail to surrender the weapon to the officer upon demand, the same penalties may apply.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/stop.htm

and the DPS publication:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/stop.htm

on page 25 and 26 it cites Government Code 411.205:

§ 411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY. (a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by Section 411.187.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by Subsection (a) after previously having had the person's license suspended for a violation of that subsection. An offense under this subsection is a Class B misdemeanor.

Government Code 411.207:

§ 411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.

 

[3fgburner]

I've had it go both ways

In the 90s, cops were just getting used to shall-issue in VA. I got two tickets during that period. In both cases, the cops stopped far enough back that by the time they got to my car I had the gun on the seat, cleared, slide locked open, and license / registration / ccw in my hands, on the wheel.

One was a shooter -- checked the chamber, dropped the slide and decocked, stuck it in the back of his belt while ticketing me. Then, he locked it open and handed it back the way I'd given it to him.

The other treated it like a live rattlesnake. He asked me to pop my trunk, and put the gun in there for the duration of the stop. I collected my ticket, drove 50 yards down the road, retrieved the gun from the trunk, hopped back in the car, and loaded / holstered.

More recently, I haven't seen as many nervous cops. One about 4 years ago asked where it was. I told him that it was in the console, and he said to just leave it there. Another (sherriff's deputy) wrote me the ticket, then asked to see the gun because he hadn't run across someone carrying a Makarov before, and was interested in it. 5 minutes to get a ticket, followed by about 15 of talking gun-juju.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

This cop made the entire situation more dangerous.

The cop may not think so.

I don't want some ham-handed person trying to disassemble my guns. Not that any officer is ham handed by nature, but if I see the spring plug off my 1911 flying through the air, or he/she damages my P7 because they have never handled these types of firearms, I'm going to feel pretty annoyed. How many firearms are they gonna know how to break down SAFELY. I've trained lots on different guns and I think I could safely breakdown:

I think you are overly worried about something that isn't likely to ever happen.

First, few officers ever disarm CCW license holders during traffic stops.
Second, of those persons that do get disarmed, the officer almost never disassembles the gun. If the officer is inclined to do anything, it would be to unload it.
Third, of the supposed incidents where the gun was disassembled, there don't seem to be any known cases where the officers' actions damaged the guns.