At what point do you stop talking to a LEO at home?

[NukemJim]

This thread is an offshoot of an offshoot

In this thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=247457

The title mentioned auto and home but the thread and all responses seemed to cover auto not home.

I wonder about houses and apartments.

In a car I have to show drivers license/registration/insurance. I do not know of any paperwork I have to show a LEO for a car or apartment (there may be a lot, my ignorance on this subject is vast). Do I even have to open the door if there is no warrant? Do I have to talk to them? Can it be through the door?

I've posted before and will post again the vast majority of cops are good, hardworking, professionals who, in my experience, if treated civily and with respect respond with the same. I would not wnat their job and I frequently thank them for doing it. However even an honest cops make mistakes (we are all human) or can be ordered to arrest the wrong person due to witness/paperwork/crime lab negligence/error/honest mistake/desire to get a conviction.

Just as LEOs train and practice "officer survival" tactics (or they should) for rare but horrendous events, I believe that private citizens should do the same. The largest part of that is not talking too much (extremely difficult for me) the question is how much is legally required.

And for those who like to think like Pollyanna please Google the names Ricard Jewel, Dennis Fritz, Marion Coakley, WalterTyrone Snyder, Robert Miller, Glen Dale Woodall, Ron Williamson, Gary Dotson , Dennis Fritz, Tim Durham, Donald Reynolds, Marvin Mitchell, Dennis Williams and read up on these real people BEFORE you respond and say obey the law and do not worry nothing bad will happen to you.

NukemJim

 

[Derby FALs]

FLEX YOUR RIGHTS-AT HOME

 

[Autolycus]

Thanks for the link Derby FALs. I just read it. I am going to have to make a card to put in my wallet. The police are always stopping people around here on the street. (I am in a college town).

 

[El Tejon]

One thing I've always wondered in my line of work is why guys always open the door? Just talk through the door, ask them if they have a warrant.

If not, wish them a good day and tell them to leave. If they have a warrant, better do like the Grateful Dead say.

Have your attorney find out what it is that the po-po want.

 

[tellner]

There's been a couple cases here where homeowners opened the door and stepped outside to talk to the police and were immediately taken down, cuffed and had their houses searched even though the officers had no warrant and in one case were at the wrong house. Of course, by the time the police got their story straight the homeowner had made a "furtive gesture" or had consented to the search

 

[foob]

Most important thing is not to let them enter, talk to them outside.

There was a case where a couple let the police into the living room, some went to the basement and found a party with underage drinking (alcohol brought by others, unknown to parents).

Couple was arrested and convicted.

They said allowing them to enter the house, means they were given permission to wander around the whole house.

So most important, never let them enter the house, even if you think you haven't done anything illegal.

 

[Molon Labe]

never let them enter the house, even if you think you haven't done anything illegal.

Very true.

If you let them in your house, you have given implied consent for them to perform a limited search. Anything in "plain view" (e.g. a bag of marijuana on a table) can be used as probable cause for arresting you.

 

[cbsbyte]

The current thought process in LEO departments is that all citizens are guilty of something, it is up to them to find out what law the citizen broke. The best advise is not to discuss anything with a LEO you don't know personally, any slight slip of the tongue can get one into hot water. And never submit to a search without a warrant. Yes, it might make them believe you are guilty of a crime if you refuse a search but in the long run it is better to have the time to discuss the matter with an attorney. Never trust an LEO, even if they are family.

 

[Frog48]

A few years back, in college, my roommates and I were throwing a party at our house. We werent being loud or anything, but nonetheless a patrol car stopped and the 2 officers claimed they stopped simply because of the "excessive number of cars" parked in the vacinity of our house. They knocked on the door, I opened and went outside to see what they wanted... I surely was not going to let them in the house, because some of my friends were still under 21 at the time...

Well, the cops werent satisfied with my explanation that we had some friends over. They said (not asked) that they wanted to look around inside...

Probably not the smartest thing I've ever done, but I just laughed, and said, "Would yall like some lawn chairs while you wait for a warrant?"

They got pissed and left, and didnt come back. So despite being a smartass, it worked.

 

[Flyboy]

The current thought process in LEO departments is that all citizens are guilty of something, it is up to them to find out what law the citizen broke.

With the current state of the laws, they're probably right.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Grant:

Didn't you post that you always get an NICS wait?

Hm....

Regards,

 

[Sean85746]

The truth is....MOST people aren't familiar with the 4th Amendment...or don't excercise it.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Granted, the 4th Amendment is on it's last leg, and if not dying, it is gasping ragged breaths. But we need to excercise it to keep it alive.

My point is this....learn to say "NO".

I am a firm believer that most guys who go to jail do so because they couldn't keep their mouth shut. I know, I have seen it happen.

I have been pulled over while carrying a gun, and a "large sum of cash". Both red-flags to LE. I was totally legit...I have a CCW, and I had my cash in my pocket, along with the withdrawal slip from my bank. I was going to Prescott, AZ to J&G Sales on a buying trip. I had in mind to buy a few pistols, and a couple of rifles, and generally scrounge the Prescott gun shops for deals. So, I took cash....the best "bargain motivator" there is.

Anyway, I was pulled over by DPS just north of the big rest stop for going 8MPH over the posted limit. I was in my truck, obviously not drinking anything other than Diet Pepsi.

The officer walked to the driver's side window of my extended-cab GMC, and looked it over thoroughly. The interior of the truck is kept clean, and only had my small duffel bag, and a small ice chest in the back seat (full of Diet Pepsi), so there was no debris that would have to be rifled through to see what was in the truck.

He asked for my license and proof of insurance, which is kept above my visor in a pouch, which I already had in my hand, both of which were on top of the steering wheel in plain sight.

Then he asked if I knew why I had been pulled over. I opined that it must be because I was speeding.

He said I was going 8MPH over the speed limit. I said "You got me."

Now, he already knew that my truck was legit, properly licensed, insured, and had my driver's license in hand. Other than a hard copy my driver's license and insurance, he would have had that info, and known if my truck had been reported stolen, before he approached me. Once he had the license, registration, and proof of insurance in his hand verifying who I was, and that it was indeed my truck...his job was done, but to issue me the cite.

He took it a step further, and asked..."Is that your bag and cooler in the back seat?"

"Yep"

"Do you mind if I take a look inside?"

"Officer, with all due respect, I DO mind, and I am not giving you permission to look inside, and I would like my ticket now, so I can be on my way."

"Sir, 90% of the people who refuse to let me search their vehicle have something in it they don't want me to find."

"Super, well, I have nothing illegal in my vehicle, and I am not giving you consent to look through my personal property, or search my vehicle without a warrant. I am off for the weekend, and I have all day, and I am happy to sit here while you try to get a warrant."

He mumbled something about "slowing down" as he handed me my ticket, and my license back.

The truth is...I HAD NOTHING illegal, but I wasn't in the mood for a fishing expedition.

That crap about..."90% of the people who don't want me to search...etc, etc..." is just that....crap.

Use your rights folks.

 

[Frog48]

Grant:

Didn't you post that you always get an NICS wait?

Hm....

Yep, sure did. Sometimes I wonder if there is a vast government conspiracy against me.

Just kidding... sort of.

 

[rudolf]

This is in case you are not fully sure what the cop is up to. Always try to help a cop if you are sure he is doing something legitimate.

If you are outside of your home, ask:
"Officer, am I free to leave now". If he says no, you're under arrest, shut up.

If you're in your house, ask the officer if he has a warrant. If not, tell him he is free to leave and get one.

Do not answer any question or allow the officer to do anything. Especially if he says please. But don't resist either. Try to get a witness. Works magic on crooks and crooked cops.

 

[tellner]

In a few years there will be a five day waiting period and licensing requirements for video cameras. The FOP will be behind it 100%

 

[JLStorm]

Thanks for the link Derby FALs. I just read it. I am going to have to make a card to put in my wallet. The police are always stopping people around here on the street. (I am in a college town).

Can you speficy where on the page you are referring too, I am not seeing anything I would put in my wallet, but it sounds like you found something good.

 

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me that basic courtesy, politeness and common sense should tell anybody how to deal with a cop-knock on the door.

Common sense says to look through a window to see what's going on, as much as is possible. You can be saying, "Just a moment," at the same time.

There are so many good and righteous reasons for a cop to seek information: He might just want to know what you know about your neighbor's whereabouts. Or if you know where someone lives; he's trying to respond to some call in an area where street numbers aren't readily visible.

A heckuva lot of posts in this thread and the previous two give me the impression that we have a lot of guilty consciences here at THR.

Art

 

[veloce851]

somewhat on topic.. if LE is at your home in order to jsut ask some questions. THey have no warrant or PC for anything else.

Is it against the law to just simply ignore the door?
Not answer and not respond.
For example you are sitting in your favorite chair with a pair of headphones on enjoying some good music
But there are other obvious signs of occupancy, like a pet outside or a window open.
Just curious.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

If LEOs are coming to your home for some reason which you did not initiate yourself, you shouldn't be talking to them. If any LEO comes to my door, and I did not request his presence, I will explain to him, through the locked door, that I am very busy, and do you have a warrant? I might give him my phone number so he can call me from his cellphone and state his business. In any case the only thing I will say is, "sir, I am very busy right now. The only time and place I would be able to discuss this with you would be at my attorney's office. His number is ____. Contact him to schedule an appointment. Please leave my property immediately, or I will call the police. You are trespassing."

That's all. Through a locked door.

Sounds hostile and unfriendly? Well, if a LEO shows up at your door you can already assume the situation is hostile and unfriendly!

 

[Sindawe]

A heckuva lot of posts in this thread and the previous two give me the impression that we have a lot of guilty consciences here at THR.

Not a guilty conscience, just a healthy suspicion of an armed agent of a government. When dealing with that dangerous and unpredictable creation of ours known as government, paranoia is not a mental illness, it is a survival trait.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i'm gonna wager

that this is like when a 19 year old shows up at an aa meeting bragging about all his hard drinking. and some old timer looks at him and says "boy i spilt more than you ever drank. that said as a retired pro at the cops and crooks game it sure is fun to listen to. i don't miss having to be so afraid in my life as it appears some on this board are. or is this like a bunch of barely adolescent boys talking sex? the ones who've had the least have the most to say?

who was it did that song " we talked of love all around it, and what we'd do if we found it"?

but maybe it the areas you live in or maybe its me and that i'm not afraid of the cops anymore. and heck i even got to experience the joy of a bogus bust a couple years back. end result? i talked to the chief magistrate after i turned myself in. he said after checking that he believed an error had been made and that he'd take care of it on his end. and a man of his word the charges went away. now were i to buy into the fear and conspiracy folks i shoulda been a goner. but reallity has a way of being so dull when compared with fantasy. now make no mistake i did see a lawyer about charge but disabusing yet another stereotype he charged me 50 bucks for phone calls to verify dead status of charges.
the last cops here were to tell me my goat was in the street. i'd have felt like a total eunuch if i hid behind my door and told him to contact my lawyer but hey different strokes for different folks

 

[rbernie]

There are so many good and righteous reasons for a cop to seek information: He might just want to know what you know about your neighbor's whereabouts. Or if you know where someone lives; he's trying to respond to some call in an area where street numbers aren't readily visible.

My upbringing and my instincts WANT to agree and side with this. But some of us don't live in Mayberry any more, and we know darn well that good Sheriff Andy ain't gonna be sipping lemonade on our front porch with us anytime soon.

A heckuva lot of posts in this thread and the previous two give me the impression that we have a lot of guilty consciences here at THR.

It's inevitable that the fun-n-games-in-law-enforcement that are so hilarious when they get stupid critters off the streets of rural Texas in another exciting Lawdog episode suddenly don't seem so hilarious when Officer Hardcase is sitting on my front porch trying his darndest to link me-n-mine to the nefarious activity of some craptastic neighbor of whom I (thankfully) have scant knowledge.

Personal touches and interactions between LEO and non-LEO make for happy communities. Impersonal and confrontational contact makes things tense. And as our population centers become more and more impersonal, concerns about interactions with aggressive and impersonal LEOs also become more and more valid.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

that this is like when a 19 year old shows up at an aa meeting bragging about all his hard drinking. and some old timer looks at him and says "boy i spilt more than you ever drank. that said as a retired pro at the cops and crooks game it sure is fun to listen to. i don't miss having to be so afraid in my life as it appears some on this board are.

As someone who speaks from painful real-life experience of being on the receiving end of LEO attention, in a case where I had done absolutely nothing wrong, not even in a gray area, and the LEOs were acting on a "tip" consisting of fabrications, I am quite insulted to be called a keyboard commando in this situation. My advice is from my painful real-world experience and if I had not stuck to my "talk to my lawyer, goodbye" line, my life would have gone to hell.

Leave the door locked. Tell Officer Friendly that you would enjoy meeting with him in your lawyer's office.

MOST PEOPLE IN PRISON TALKED THEIR WAY IN.

 

[Geno]

You ask, "When to stop?"

I ask why start?

Doc2005

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

this is true

"MOST PEOPLE IN PRISON TALKED THEIR WAY IN."


seen many a slick guy talk a misdemeanor into a felony. almost always involves less than truthful speech. or discussion where someone leaves a lil something out to guide attention away from them or someone else.