A technical question about the history of the AK-47 in relation to the SKS...

[Sam Cade]

But the Chinese were said to have mucked around making a full auto SKS at one time. That's what I hear anyway. Obviously it didn't catch on.

The Chi-Com Type 81 rifle is SKS derived in some aspects and replaced the Type-56 Kalashnikov clone in the PLA.

 

[briansmithwins]

Looks more like a SKS/AK hybrid.

Any details about the internals? Obviously the receiver is stamped.

BSW

 

[briansmithwins]

Looks like it's basically a AK pattern rifle with a short stroke piston setup.

BSW

 

[barnbwt]

Hey, that's like what a Vintorez or VAL is! (well, plus a silencer)

TCB

 

[Cee Zee]

I'll just say that is absolutely false. Give me 5 minutes with one.

Well I've never seen one that was full auto. There's some reason I was given why they weren't well designed for full auto but I"m not a gun smith. Maybe you can make one full auto. I don't know. But I've seen people actually dumb enough to convert other guns to full auto (but smart enough to do it at the same time if you get my drift) and none of them believed it was possible to do with an SKS. I couldn't swear by what they said because again they know what they're doing. I haven't really tried to learn such things.

As for the M1 having 8 rounds and a clip that stayed in the rifle those things are true but it's also true that the SKS was a pretty good imitation of a cross between a M1 and M1 Carbine. It would have been a natural progression to copy a rifle other countries were using to great success. And I believe that had some bearing on the design of the SKS and then the German assault rifle led to the Russian assault rifle. We see the same progression with Russian tanks for example not to mention a lot of other military equipment. The Russians took the best ideas for tanks and applied their own principles (making more of them cheaper and faster mostly) and used them to really drub the Germans. I can see the same type of progression with rifles but it is obviously speculation. I have no proof.

Yes the SKS didn't keep the clip inside the gun like the M1 did but that's a minor point. It was an improvement IMO since it is likely that at least a few Americans were killed because of that often discussed ping when the clip was ejected. I don't want to open that can of worms but I would think that at least some Americans were shot because their rifles were unloaded and the enemy knew it. I could definitely be wrong about that. I wasn't there but I know the theories.

Mostly I just know that the SKS was a semi-auto weapon that carried more than the average bolt action rifle and it loaded from the top with a stripper clip. That's an awful lot like an M1. The ammo was a smaller caliber and the rifle was shorter. That's a lot like the M1 Carbine IMO. The round is had very similar ballistics to the 30 cal. rounds used in the M1 Carbine. I don't think all of these things can be coincidence.

EDIT:

FWIW I found video of an SKS converted to full auto (apparently). There's actually someone willing to video themselves shooting it and post it on Youtube. I guess prison doesn't scare some people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lH6xMcXpqvM#t=29

 

[briansmithwins]

The Russians took the best ideas for tanks and applied their own principles (making more of them cheaper and faster mostly) and used them to really drub the Germans.

If you're referring to the T34/Panther then you've got it exactly backwards. The Panther was a German attempt to copy the T34, which was a much more advanced design than the previous MkIII and MkIV German armor.

Now if we're talking tank tactics, then yes, the Red Army was schooled by the Germans until they mastered the subject...

FWIW I found video of an SKS converted to full auto (apparently). There's actually someone willing to video themselves shooting it and post it on Youtube. I guess prison doesn't scare some people.

It's actually pretty straightforward to get a SOT and be able to make anything you want full auto for the price of about $500 a year, assuming you already have a FFL. Not saying that's what's going on with your full auto SKS but it's possible.

BSW

 

[Cee Zee]

you're referring to the T34/Panther then you've got it exactly backwards. The Panther was a German attempt to copy the T34,

Silly me. I didn't realize the Russians didn't try to copy a tank that came out after the T34 when they first designed their tank. Initially the T34 was designed based on how tanks performed in the Spanish Civil War and the Winter War but that was in 1939 and before the German tanks showed the world how tactics and a fairly heavy gun could work very effectively. The T34 was upgraded continuously like all weapons in WWII for the most part. The heavier gun and faster mobility made the initial T34 production tanks superior to the Panzer IV. But the Russians weren't done. They did what all countries in the war did - they learned from their mistakes and they copied features from enemy and allies alike. Of course the big advantage of the T34 was the sloped armor. But they used a big gun from the start and by 1942 they were putting even bigger guns in their tanks and dual purpose guns on top of that. And yes they learned a lot about tactics by the time the Battle Of Stalingrad was about to turn tremendously. They surrounded the German troops and left them to wither and die. Pretty good tactics IMO.

Again the rule of thumb was constant upgrades. All of the major nations in the war did it. The US didn't start out with Shermans. They built up to that level even though we stopped development after converting our tanks to have armor around vital areas like ammunition storage and fuel tanks. We mostly concentrated on volume which the Russians did also to an extent after the larger gunned T34-85 was put in action.

I know countries developed their equipment based on what worked well in the war. And for the Soviets that meant upgrading to a semi-auto carbine with a lighter caliber round. After all our rifles were the most effective of the war especially early on.

 

[stubbicatt]

... The trigger group is lifted from the Garand.

I don't the the SKS trigger group bears any resemblance to the Garand. The Kalashnikov resembles the Garand however.

 

[Panzerschwein]

The round is had very similar ballistics to the 30 cal. rounds used in the M1 Carbine. I don't think all of these things can be coincidence.

Well not exactly-

30 Carbine:
110 grain bullets @ 1990 FPS= 967 ft-lbf

7.62x39mm:
123 grain bullets @ 2421 FPS= 1607 ft-lbf

Actually the 7.62x39mm numbers were takes from the 16" bbl of an AK rifle, in reality the SKS would produce slightly higher velocities and energies due to the longer 20" bbl. But, as you can see, it is clearly more powerful than .30 carbine and since it uses a more aerodynamic "spitzer" bullet than the round nose .30 carbine, it has advantages in that regard.

 

[Cee Zee]

Well not exactly-

The M1 Carbine was underpowered and pretty much everyone knew it. It was designed for short range action though and the cartridges reflect that. That's also true of the SKS. Both were reduced power rounds. The M1 Carbine was the first to do that. The SKS followed. The Russians didn't go as low with their power as the Americans did. The point was that both were much reduced from the normal battle rounds of the time like the 30.06, the .303, 7.62 x 54, etc.. When I said they were similar I didn't mean identical. I just meant they were both similar in that they were made to work at shorter ranges. I still stand behind my contention that the SKS was an attempt to match both the M1 and the M1 Carbine in certain ways. The AK followed along soon with even more of the features of the Carbine like detachable mags. But it was full auto in imitation of the German assault rifle.

 

[briansmithwins]

But it was full auto in imitation of the German assault rifle.

The Sov had a lot of experience being on the receiving end of assault rifles by the end of WWII. The AK was a obvious response, using the M43 cartridge they had already decided suited their tactics and doctrine.

The M1 carbine was intended to be what we would call a PDW now. Something to give cooks and truck drivers a weapon that was light and handy while being more effective than a pistol. The M1 carbine filled those roles nicely and was capable enough that lots of GIs carried them in preference to M1 rifles. But the carbine wasn't a assault rifle, even in the full auto form.

BSW

 

[max popenker]

But the carbine wasn't a assault rifle, even in the full auto form.

beware, you're on the slippery grounds now!

because there's no single agreed universal definition of "assault rifle" term, at least I know of none.

and before you start discussing "intermediate cartridge" and "controllable select-fire firepower", please be informed that at least two full-power, select-fire rifles were officially designated as "Sturmgewehr" - those were Austrian Stg.58 (license-built FN FAL) in 7.62x51 and Swiss Stgw.57 (a.k.a. SIG 510) in 7.5x55
Most ironic fact about those guns is that both countries are officially neutral, and thus their weapons (including assault rifles) have primary defensive role

 

[Cee Zee]

But the carbine wasn't a assault rifle, even in the full auto form.

I don't think the SKS is a true assault rifle either. And that's the Russian gun that copied some of the attributes of the M1 Carbine. The AK-47 took some ideas from the Carbine but it was more about copying the Sturmgewehr design principles. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I know the Carbine was a replacement for the 1911 basically. The 1911 basically just wasn't that effective at it's role of short range defense. It was found that a rifle could do much better and a shorter, lighter caliber rifle could do the job the 1911 was expected to do better than the 1911 could. I love 1911's but it's just true that a pistol is no match for a rifle even if it's a low powered rifle like the Carbine. For one thing the Carbine had 15 round mags and even 30 round mags at times. That's much better than the 7 round mags of the 1911's. And it's easier to hit what you're shooting at if you aim it from the shoulder. The SKS didn't go totally in the direction of the Carbine but it was a reflection of how the Carbine was being used not just as a cook's rifle or an officer's rifle. It was also used in short range roles for defense of tanks from people who would try to take out a track with a grenade and also for defending machine gun nests from the same type of attack. It was quick to aim and shoot which was key in stopping someone ready to toss a pineapple or a potato masher in your lap. It wasn't the choice for all battle participants by any means. But it had it's place. And IMO the Russians saw the idea of a reduced caliber rifle and came up with a rifle that wasn't as weak as the Carbine but still was quicker to aim and shoot especially when shooting multiple shots. It was a 200 yard gun as opposed to the Carbine being a 100 yard gun. But keep in mind that pretty much all battle rifles were much more powerful up to that point except for the sub-machine guns which were actually thought to be not powerful enough in many cases.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I also look at what the Russians were copying when they made those weapons. First you had the M1 with the same 10 round capacity and also fed by stripper clips. But there were other rifles coming along in the war like the M1 Carbine that was shorter, lighter and used a smaller caliber round but still had a smaller capacity mag in the 15 round detachable. I think most M1 Carbines came with the smaller mag (rather than the 30 round mag). Keep in mind that the 7.62 x 39 round was very similar in ballistics to the .30 cal. US rifles. But later in the war the Germans unleashed the Sturmgewehr and that changed the rules of rifle making again. Suddenly it was obvious that a high capacity, fast firing assault rifle (the Sturmgewehr actually translates to assault rifle) could be very effective. So the Russians set to work copying that design using the round they had already developed (the 7.62 x 39).

Oh boy.......

As RCmodel already pointed out, the Garand uses 8 round en bloc clips, not stripper clips.

The M1 carbine did NOT use a smaller caliber round than the M1 Garand; both are .30.

The M1 carbine was issued only with 15 round magazines during WWII; the 30 rounders were issued with the select fire M2 carbine after 1944.

The .30 carbine round and the 7.62x39mm soviet are about as ballistically similar as the .45 ACP and .44 Remington magnum. The bottneck M43 cartridge produces much higher muzzle velocity & energy, and the spitzer bullet, albeit a stubby one, has a much higher ballistic coefficient. Really, the two rounds are nothing alike.

And the literal translation of sturmgewehr is "storm rifle", storm used as a transitive verb. The German word for assault is angriff.

 

[briansmithwins]

and before you start discussing "intermediate cartridge" and "controllable select-fire firepower", please be informed that at least two full-power, select-fire rifles were officially designated as "Sturmgewehr" - those were Austrian Stg.58 (license-built FN FAL) in 7.62x51 and Swiss Stgw.57 (a.k.a. SIG 510) in 7.5x55

The US Army called the M14 a replacement for the M3 submachine gun too.

I like the definition of a assault rifle as a being capable of fully automatic fire using a intermediate cartridge. Using that definition, the M1 carbine fails both ways: not capable of fully automatic fire and not using a intermediate cartridge.

Personally, I wouldn't class either the FAL (in its many forms) or the Stgw.57 as assault rifle because they both utilize 762 NATO which is just .30-06 in a shorter case.

BSW

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ By the most accepted technical definition, the M2 Carbine meets every point noted for an "Assault Rifle". It was the USA's first one.



Willie

.

 

[barnbwt]

And that's the Russian gun that copied some of the attributes of the M1 Carbine. The AK-47 took some ideas from the Carbine but it was more about copying the Sturmgewehr design principles. That's my story and I'm sticking to it

The SKS was a scaled down PTRS anti tank rifle; not sure what attributes would have come from the Carbine, specifically. The concept of a low-cap handy service carbine had already been made clear through the SVT40/AVT40 platforms, which enjoyed great effect when wielded properly, but were badly overpowered and too long. Ironically, the tilting bolt concept employed by the STGW was developed decades prior and copied back and forth between all parties.

The AK47 was, if anything, inspired more by the M1 Garand than the Carbine. The bolt lockup, gas operation, fire control group -- all of them are near duplicates, but optimized for full auto fire and manufacturability (gas piston up top, namely, which practically all rifles developed near the end of the war were going to). The concept of the STG proved the worth of the intermediate cartridge, and that's what the Soviets took and ran with (though, as the 276 Pedersen and later 280 British showed, they were probably latest to that realization, although the first to commit to the idea).

TCB

 

[briansmithwins]

M2 Carbine meets every point noted for an "Assault Rifle

Except that of intermediate powered ammunition.

.30 carbine is basically a souped up, rimless .357 Magnum class cartridge.

An assault rifle's cartridge should be able to achieve effective firepower out to 300-400 yards, which a M1 carbine would be hard pressed to do.

BSW

 

[Sam1911]

The SKS was a scaled down PTRS anti tank rifle

Quoting Max from above:

IIRC, the SKS design was a scaled down version of a Soviet anti-tank rifle

No, it wasn't
SKS was a scaled-down version of the experimental 7.62x54R Simonov semi-auto rifle, developed in 1940-41 in competition with Tokarev SVT-40
PTRS anti-tank rifle was based on the same design, but scaled up and adapted to en-block clip rather than stripper clip loading.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The story I have always heard is that the Russians first developed the 7.62x39mm cartridge in answer to the German 7.92 Kurz used in the StG44, but Kalashnikov's automat rifle to answer the StG44 was hitting some development snags, so the design of a succesful Soviet heavy semi-automatic rifle was scaled down to the 7.62x39mm as a stop-gap as the Siminov 1945 SKS.

 

[max popenker]

but Kalashnikov's automat rifle to answer the StG44 was hitting some development snags, so the design of a succesful Soviet heavy semi-automatic rifle was scaled down to the 7.62x39mm as a stop-gap as the Siminov 1945 SKS

Wrong again
Once design of the 7.62x41 M43 cartridge was finalized late in 1943, official requirements were issued for a FAMILY of small arms, including
- bolt action carbine for rear echelon troops (soon abandoned)
- semi-automatic carbine (primary infantry rifle)
- select-fire avtomat (replacement for SMG, more or less a specialized weapon)
- LMG / Squad Automatic weapon

AK was adopted as a primary infantry rifle only during late 1950s; before that, SKS was the general issue rifle for Soviet army.