A TN guy can buy a rifle Directly from a Private seller, inside MS, AR, AL?

[Ignition Override]

FTF/in person, in a public parking lot.
And there is no legal reason to require shipping (a rifle) across state lines from an AR/MS/AL FFL to an FFL in TN?
Few people in TN with whom I chat about guns state that this is legal.

We all know about the prohibition to sell handguns across state lines in a private sale, but I'm Only interested in options regarding regular rifles (with barrels 16" or more).

People in MS on Armslist have the impression that they can Not sell a rifle, inside MS in a private deal, to somebody from TN.

This is just to cover any future possibilities and invite discussion at the private shooting club.

 

[Spats McGee]

FTF/in person, in a public parking lot.
And there is no legal reason to require shipping (a rifle) across state lines from an AR/MS/AL FFL to an FFL in TN?
Few people in TN with whom I chat about guns state that this is legal.

It seems likely that they don't "state that this is legal" because it's not.

(a) It shall be unlawful--
(1) for any person-- . . . .(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

18 U.S.C.A. § 922 (West)

So it's illegal to bring into your state a firearm acquired in another state unless you: (1) got it by bequest (which has its own specifics); (2) got it in conformity with section (b)(3); or (3) or got it before this section was effective.

So let's go to (b)(3):

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver-- . . . .
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes; . . . .

18 U.S.C.A. § 922 (West)

The short story: All interstate firearms transfers (except bequest or temporary loans for sporting purposes) have to go through an FFL. Handguns have to be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's state of residence. Long guns can be transferred through an FFL in a different state.

We all know about the prohibition to sell handguns across state lines in a private sale, but I'm Only interested in options regarding regular rifles (with barrels 16" or more).

People in MS on Armslist have the impression that they can Not sell a rifle, inside MS in a private deal, to somebody from TN.

This is just to cover any future possibilities and invite discussion at the private shooting club.

All interstate firearms transfers have to involve an FFL. See above.

 

[Sam1911]

Few people in TN with whom I chat about guns state that this is legal.

I'm glad that few do. Wish it was none. Because that isn't legal at all.

People in MS on Armslist have the impression that they can Not sell a rifle, inside MS in a private deal, to somebody from TN.

And we can be proud of them for upholding the law.

This is just to cover any future possibilities and invite discussion at the private shooting club.

Hopefully you can take a copy of the law that Spats cited with you to the shooting club and next time the discussion comes up you can definitively put it to rest.

I know you'll get push-back because many gun guys just "know fer a fact!" that you can do whatever it is they think you can do, but challenge them to show you what the law actually says. And when they can't back up their claims, you can pull out the copy of the text and read it to them.

Here is a link that will take you right to that section of the US Code: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

 

[Frank Ettin]

...People in MS on Armslist have the impression that they can Not sell a rifle, inside MS in a private deal, to somebody from TN....

And they are correct.

Spats and Sam have nailed it.

Federal law on interstate firearms transfers has been in effect for almost 50 years. It was enacted by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

1. Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
   
   
2. In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.
   
   
3. In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.
   
   
4. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
   
   
5. The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).
   
   
6. Here's what the statutes say:

   18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts
   
   (a) It shall be unlawful—
   ...
   
   (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
   
   

   (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
   
   (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
   
   (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

   
   ...
   
   (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
   
   

   (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
   
   (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

   
   ....
   
   (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
   ...
   
   (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
   
   

   (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and
   
   (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

   ...

Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.​

 

[Ignition Override]

Thanks very much for your time and trouble gentlemen.

 

[Spats McGee]

It's my pleasure. I suspect that much of the confusion arises from the old "contiguous state" rule that was in place until about 1986. That law, however, was changed.

 

[CapnMac]

The way I remember it is to recall that pistols take two FFL; and long arms take one.

I want to remember that this nifty little detail is yet another part of our "win" with FOPA 8--but I could be mistaken.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The way I remember it is to recall that pistols take two FFL; and long arms take one.....

Not really. Legally only one FFL is required -- the one to do the transfer to the person taking possession. However, some FFLs will not accept, for the purposes of doing a transfer, a gun (handgun or long gun) from a non-licensee. That's their prerogative but not legally required.

 

[toivo]

Yeah, it's pretty clear. You can go out-of-state and buy a long gun from an FFL, with a background check, but you can't go out-of-state and do a private buy. It reminds me of a very strange transaction about 12 years ago that I still haven't really figured out.

I bought a lever-action .22 rifle from an FFL in Massachusetts through an online auction. I live in New York. After I won the auction, I called them and asked if I could pick it up in person to save the shipping and the FFL fee on my end. I live pretty near the border, and the shop wasn't too far on the other side. They said OK.

So I drove to Mass., paid for the rifle, filled out the 4473, and had the background check. Then the guy puts the rifle in a case and says "Follow me." He goes out and gets in his truck, and I follow him down the road. When we cross the state line, he pulls over, gets out of his car, hands me the case, and he's gone.

Why did he do that? I didn't ask, but I guess I should have. My friend thinks it was a sales tax thing, that the dealer logged it as an out-of-state sale and didn't charge me the tax. Other people have told me he broke the law, but I don't know why he would. I can think of no legal reason he wouldn't have let me take possession of the rifle right there in the shop. The gun was legal in both New York and Massachusetts. It was legal for me to buy it from him and legal for him to sell it to me. It was legal for an out-of-state resident to possess in Massachusetts: non-AW long gun, unloaded and cased.

I'm still scratching my head over that one.

 

[Spats McGee]

He goes out and gets in his truck, and I follow him down the road. When we cross the state line, he pulls over, gets out of his car, hands me the case, and he's gone.

That sounds a bit fishy.

 

[Sam1911]

That IS odd. An FFL can't do business just anywhere, so the transaction, legally, had to be in his place of business not along the side of the road where he gave the gun to you.

Sounds a bit like one of those smart workarounds that people will convince themselves are needed or useful, but aren't based on anything but a misunderstanding.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Spats McGee: "I suspect that much of the confusion arises from the old "contiguous state" rule that was in place until about 1986."
That is probably it. A lot of folks seem to think it never changed.

 

[Ignition Override]

Just found the rifle I was seeking but not at all expecting in a FTF deal, via an extremely fortunate local Armslist WTS (with WTT in small print for a specific TGI Hungarian ***-**) ad. Such a valuable source!

Appreciate all of the info and situations described here.
It might have been the many casual private deals heard about at southern gun shows which cause much confusion. Might be just rumors.

 

[Speedo66]

Can't a private party send or sell a legal C&R firearm, long gun or handgun, to a C&R licensed private party in another state? The receiver would possess a type of Federal Firearms License, of course, just not be someone we would normally consider a professional "FFL".

 

[dogtown tom]

....So I drove to Mass., paid for the rifle, filled out the 4473, and had the background check. Then the guy puts the rifle in a case and says "Follow me." He goes out and gets in his truck, and I follow him down the road. When we cross the state line, he pulls over, gets out of his car, hands me the case, and he's gone. Why did he do that? .

That dealer is wholly and completely an idiot of the highest order.
He committed a felony by lying on the Form 4473 (verifying that the firearm was transferred to you at his licensed premises). He then committed another felony by delivering a firearm outside the state where he is licensed.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Can't a private party send or sell a legal C&R firearm, long gun or handgun, to a C&R licensed private party in another state?....

With regard to federal law, see the federal statutes cited and quoted in post 4, specifically 18 USC 922(a)(3) and 922(a)(5). A "licensed collector" referred to in those statutes is a person holding a class 03 FFL, i. e., a C&R Licensee.

But note also that may be more restrictive than federal law.

 

[GRIZ22]

Spats McGee: "I suspect that much of the confusion arises from the old "contiguous state" rule that was in place until about 1986."
That is probably it. A lot of folks seem to think it never changed.

The old contiguous states rule allowed someone to buy a long gun from a FFL in a contiguous state not from a private seller.

 

[Spats McGee]

That's true, Grizz, but I've met a few folks that didn't quite get that.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The intent of the federal law is to prevent people who cannot legally buy a gun -- 1968 GCA prohibited persons -- from acquiring a gun privately.
The letter of the law and regulations to implement the law are what we have to follow.
There was at least one case where a federal appellate court decided a buyer had not violated the intent of Congress and set aside a violation.

If I in TN want to buy a gun from a seller in a contiguous state, the worse case is that FFL to FFL transfer fees could end up about $65 at one gun shop I checked. Or take a chance with worst case and luckily making a successful argument in a federal appeals court which successful or not would cost a lot more than $65 dollars.

 

[toivo]

That dealer is wholly and completely an idiot of the highest order.
He committed a felony by lying on the Form 4473 (verifying that the firearm was transferred to you at his licensed premises). He then committed another felony by delivering a firearm outside the state where he is licensed.

Right. What I'm wondering is first of all why he did it, and second whether I exposed myself to any legal jeopardy in the whole deal. I believe that it was legally my rifle as soon as the background check went through, and that if he didn't hand it to me right there in the shop, that's on him, not me. Or so I think.

 

[GRIZ22]

The intent of the federal law is to prevent people who cannot legally buy a gun -- 1968 GCA prohibited persons -- from acquiring a gun privately.
The letter of the law and regulations to implement the law are what we have to follow.
There was at least one case where a federal appellate court decided a buyer had not violated the intent of Congress and set aside a violation.

If I in TN want to buy a gun from a seller in a contiguous state, the worse case is that FFL to FFL transfer fees could end up about $65 at one gun shop I checked. Or take a chance with worst case and luckily making a successful argument in a federal appeals court which successful or not would cost a lot more than $65 dollars.

Carl, not trying to sharpshoot you. Do you have a cite for that case where someone bought a gun from a private party in another state and it was overturned on appeal? I'd be interested in reading it. I never heard of anyone charged with this using that defense.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

It's been at least ten years and not on this laptop. (This is the legal part of the forum: I shudda researched it not mentioned it if I couldn't find it.)

 

[GRIZ22]

It's been at least ten years and not on this laptop. (This is the legal part of the forum: I shudda researched it not mentioned it if I couldn't find it.)

That's okay. I remember a lot of cases where I couldn't give you a cite. However, I will look for it. Let you know if I find it.

Thanx for the response.