Explain the "gun show" sales out of state, versus other FTF deals There.

[Ignition Override]

The point of this question is to better understand the general situation down south, when we drive around across state lines (only in person).

Most of the problems in NJ, NY, CT, IL, CA etc don't seem to concern us down here. Let's not bother with their unique problems.

People seem able to be able to buy the gun show bldg. (this happens very often), then is it also legal on the physical Edge of the Show's Parking Lot? Or is this a 'gray' area if the buyer has a legally very clean background? I've attended about sixteen shows since '08.

Federal law seems to prohibit having a visitor who drives from IN, KY, etc to another state such as TN, AR, MS etc and offers to sell you a gun FTF in your driveway.

As people often buy a rifle from somebody in line, who is waiting to get in the gun show, then why is this not legal a mile from the gun show location, in a FTF deal?
I've never seen any discussion of these two similar but somehow different legal situations, or where they can 'overlap', on the seven websites which I skim through.
If this topic seems to be too sensitive to explain on public forum, a member or moderator might prefer to send a 'pm'.

 

[mnrivrat]

Private sales are only legal within your state. You can not transfer/sell a gun to someone who lives outside your state of residence.

 

[Ignition Override]

Thanks for the clarification.

Therefore only inside a gun show building -which is in another southern state- is any private sale legally allowed, or tolerated?

 

[Guns and more]

Therefore only inside a gun show building -which is in another southern state- is any private sale legally allowed, or tolerated?

No. As I understand it, you cannot go to another state, and buy a firearm without it being shipped to an FFL in your state. It doesn't matter if you are at a gun show, in the parking lot, or in your driveway.
If it is done at gun shows (I don't know) it is illegal. That's not the fault of the gun show, they don't support illegal transfers.

 

[kimberkid]

No. As I understand it, you cannot go to another state, and buy a firearm without it being shipped to an FFL in your state. It doesn't matter if you are at a gun show, in the parking lot, or in your driveway.
If it is done at gun shows (I don't know) it is illegal. That's not the fault of the gun show, they don't support illegal transfers.

When did that change?

I'm in Kansas and have gone to Missouri and bought a brand new long gun from a dealer ... I know you can't to this with a handgun but rifles and shotguns, purchased from dealers in a boarding state used to be OK.

 

[Mags]

You can buy long guns from FFLs in contiguous states. Handgun sales across state lines is a no-no unles the gun is shipped to a local FFL.

 

[mnrivrat]

and bought a brand new long gun from a dealer

Nothing changed - we are talking about private sales.

You can buy long guns from FFLs in contiguous states.

That is correct.

 

[tkaction]

I thought that the law changed and you can buy a long gun from an FFL in any state. I live in PA and I was in a shop in VA. I didnt buy but the guy said I could.

 

[rule303]

You can now buy long guns from an FFL in any state, as long as the purchase is not prohibited in your home state.

 

[Sam1911]

I thought that the law changed and you can buy a long gun from an FFL in any state.

The FOPA '86 erased the federal "contiguous states" restriction put in place in the GCA '68.

As an unlicensed person you may:
1) Buy a rifle, shotgun, or handgun from a dealer or other citizen of your state, in your state. (As long as your state laws allow.)
2) Buy a rifle or shotgun from an FFL dealer at their place of business or at a gun show in ANY state. (As long as both states' laws allow.)
3) Buy a rifle or shotgun from a private party in another state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in that state or your state. (As long as both states' laws allow.)
4) Buy a handgun from a private party in any state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in your state.

You may NOT:
1) Buy a rifle or shotgun from anyone who is not a licensed dealer (FFL) who is a resident of any other state besides your state of residence. (Unless you have a dealer do the transfer paperwork as mentioned above.)
2) Buy a handgun from anyone, including an FFL dealer, in any state outside your state of residence.

All of this is spelled out pretty clearly in the ATF's FAQ.
...

So, to answer your questions directly:

The point of this question is to better understand the general situation down south, when we drive around across state lines (only in person).

Down south, up north -- all the same. Some states have more restrictive laws, but that's true throughout the country.

As we can easily drive from TN to MS or TX to buy an old surplus Enfield rifle etc- personal sale- Inside the gun show bldg. (this happens very often),

This is completely illegal. Federal law says that if the buyer and seller are not residents of the same state, both commit federal felonies.

then is it also legal on the physical Edge of the Show's Parking Lot? Or is this a 'gray' area if the buyer has a legally very clean background?

Obviously not legal anywhere on the show grounds, or anywhere else in the country. Transfer MUST be done through an FFL dealer on the 4473 form. Period.

Federal law seems to prohibit having a visitor who drives from IN, KY, etc to another state such as TN, AR, MS etc and offers to sell you a gun FTF in your driveway.

Yup. Or at a gun show. Or anywhere.

As people often buy a rifle from somebody in line, who is waiting to get in the gun show, then why is this not legal a mile from the gun show location, in a FTF deal?

Again, both parties commit federal felonies. If one of the parties is an ATF undercover agent, the other party goes to prison and pays large fines.

I've never seen any discussion of these two similar but somehow different legal situations, or where they can 'overlap', on the seven websites which I skim through.

Really? I know we covered it regularly here -- already once this month: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7151019

If this topic seems to be too sensitive to explain on public forum, a member or moderator might prefer to send a 'pm'.

Not at all! It is a matter of federal law, and the answers are VERY clear. No mystery, no sensitive info.

 

[hso]

Sam pretty much summed it up.

I gotta agree that non-FFL sales, interstate sales and the BATFE FAQs on them have been frequently discussed in Legal. Perhaps Sam's post would make a good sticky?

 

[Ignition Override]

Thanks very much for the explanation.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The only thing I would add to Sam's post is in regards to:

3) Buy a rifle or shotgun from a private party in another state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in that state or your state. (As long as both states' laws allow.)

4) Buy a handgun from a private party in any state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in your state.

If the gun is going to be transferred at an FFL in the buyer's state of residence, the gun must be delivered or shipped to the FFL by the seller. If the buyer purchases the gun in a state other than their own, and then takes possession of that gun, without having it first transferred via an FFL, the buyer is violating 18 USC 922 (a)(3), Federal Law.

The legal way to accomplish the transaction is for the buyer to pay the out of state seller for the gun. The out of state seller then ships or delivers that gun to the buyer's FFL, who transfers the gun to the buyer. The seller may utilize an FFL to ship the gun to the buyer's FFL, but it is not required by law.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Isn't it funny how this "gun show loophole" that the Brady Bunch and other anti-gun groups all point to is already an illegal action?

 

[Sam1911]

No problem!

There are a few things to consider about this discussion which relate to the greatly-debated "Gun Show Loophole" debate that is pushed so hard by the other side.

1) There is no "gun show loophole." (As we all say over and over.) The law allows for private sales in some situations. A gun show is legally no different than someone's driveway or the parking lot at the Piggly Wiggly. In no cases does the law allow anyone to purchase a firearm if they are a "prohibited person," which somehow seems to come up in all these "loophole" rants, (i.e.: criminals buying guns without paperwork). In no cases does the law allow non-dealer transfers across state lines. Anyone doing either of those things is already breaking the law. Again, there is NO loophole.

2) There are many instances of otherwise law-abiding folks breaking the out-of-state transfer laws out of ignorance. As Ignition Override so clearly (and inadvertently) illustrates, many of "US" are completely certain that some things are legal when they absolutely are NOT. The laws are clear and available, but not widely known, taught, and understood. A great many of "US" have probably broken one or more of these laws without any intent or knowledge that they were in grave danger.

When we beg the government to not pass new gun control legislation but to enforce existing gun laws, guess who those laws would be enforced upon? Those many thousands of "us," -- friends, brothers, hunting pals, grand-dads, ... even ourselves if we're not careful -- who never knew the law and assumed the law was "common sense" stuff that would really only effect "bad people." If we ever get past the "talking points" phase with our request that the gov't enforce existing laws, we're going to see a lot of perfectly innocuous people caught in a terrible place.

We owe it to ourselves and our shooting "community" as a whole to educate one another and make sure these "details" [strike]aren't[/strike] STOP falling through the cracks.

 

[rugerdude]

Is it possible to have 2 states of residence? Like, someone stationed in a state for over a year, but maintaining a driver's license in another state where their home of record is located?

 

[Sam1911]

Is it possible to have 2 states of residence?

Ask the ATF! Same FAQ as before.

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

 

[eye5600]

There is no "gun show loophole." (As we all say over and over.) The law allows for private sales in some situations. A gun show is legally no different than someone's driveway or the parking lot at the Piggly Wiggly. In no cases does the law allow anyone to purchase a firearm if they are a "prohibited person," which somehow seems to come up in all these "loophole" rants, (i.e.: criminals buying guns without paperwork).

The "loophole" is that you can buy friend-to-friend without an NICS check. To the extent that gun shows make it easier to find a "friend" and make a deal, it's a gun show loophole. What troubles Bloomberg and the antis is that non-FFLs can buy tables at gun shows and sell to whoever without the NICS check. The justification for friend-to-friend sales is that you know who you are selling to, but these guys don't.

The biggest problem in gun control is straw purchases and it's difficult to police a straw purchase that begins with a friend-to-friend sale at a gun show. Or in the parking lot.

 

[Sam1911]

The "loophole" is that you can buy friend-to-friend without an NICS check.

That's not a "loophole." That's the law of the land regarding the sale of your private property.

To the extent that gun shows make it easier to find a "friend" and make a deal, it's a gun show loophole.

The law doesn't dictate that you have to sell your personal property only to "friends." WRT firearms, the law says you must not have any reason to believe that they are prohibited persons. "Friend" doesn't enter into it.

What troubles Bloomberg and the antis is that non-FFLs can buy tables at gun shows and sell to whoever without the NICS check.

Right... Just like you can sell to any resident of your state out of your garage, living room, or anywhere else.

The justification for friend-to-friend sales is that you know who you are selling to, but these guys don't.

Who invented the term "friend-to-friend?" I've never heard that one before. You are not required to know someone to be able to sell to them. You are only required not to have any reason to believe that they are a prohibited purchaser.

Further, what is this "justification" of which you speak? There exist certain legal "justifications" as to why the government may prohibit certain sales, but there need be no "justification" for why citizens may sell, trade, or give away their private posessions. The right to conduct business is primary. The restrictions upon that right are seconday and are what require justifications. The question is not, "why are we allowed...?" but "why is the government allowed to restrict...?"

The biggest problem in gun control is straw purchases and it's difficult to police a straw purchase that begins with a friend-to-friend sale at a gun show. Or in the parking lot.

Again, I don't know what a "friend-to-friend" sale is. Never heard of that. Now straw purchases are supposedly a problem, but they really have to do with sales from dealers who have to run background checks. If someone is attempting a "straw purchase," how does that "begin with a friend-to-friend sale?"

Straw purchases and the "gun show loophole" are unrelated issues. One has to do with dealers, one with sales between unlicensed individuals.

 

[tkaction]

what is this now..."friend to friend" dont start making up new terms in an already complicated issue. FTF means "face to face" and cannot be made between residents of different states unless an FFL is involved

 

[Sam1911]

FTF means "face to face"

Even "face to face" is a term we've invented. It doesn't have any legal meaning. What we call "face to face" merely is a sale between individuals who are not licensed firearms dealers.

Further, "face to face" sales do NOT have to occur literally face-to-face. It is legal to sell a gun to a resident of your state whom you've never met or seen, shipping by common carrier.

 

[tkaction]

I was refering to the other poster now coming up with a new class of transactions as you mentioned.... Friend to friend. There are no friends in firearm sales as far as I am concerned. The risk is too great

 

[Sam1911]

I was refering to the other poster now coming up with a new class of transactions as you mentioned

Right. And I'm saying that we've done ourselves some disservice with the shorthand language we use.

First we called them "face-to-face" transactions which indicates a condition of the sale which is not actually required. ('Cause you don't have to be within 100 miles of the buyer, or to have ever met them or even heard of them before.) And now eye5600 has stretched that even further to "friend-to-friend" as though, not only do you have to be face-to-face, but you have to know them personally, vouch for their character, and even feel some level of affection for them!

In fact, once again, this is very clearly spelled out by the ATF -- who we all decry as inventing all kinds of unreasonable and unlawful restrictions on gun rights! We're inventing conditions of sale that even the big bad enemy government agency doesn't pretend we're supposed to have to meet!

From the same FAQ I've linked twice already:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. ... (snip)

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Once more, the sole restriction on a sale between residents of the same state is, "...if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited..."

 

[Ignition Override]

I'll read those previous posts when I have more time.

An experienced staffer at a local shop said that he was at the recent huge show in Tulsa (thousands of tables).

The ATF were near him, and their primary concern was the theft of AR-15 components.

Maybe this was unique, but although FTF sales at out-of-state shows are illegal, he has never heard of the enforcement, as long as the seller is not intentionally selling to somebody who is a felon (or domestic abuse) etc.
He claims that this FTF business is why the gunshow loophole exists.

Maybe it is mostly ignored by the ATF, the way Dutch police ignore weed sales in Amsterdam (for personal use)?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Is it worth it to take the chance? And remember, the buyer is more on the hook for the felony than the seller is. The buyer had to know he was buying a gun from an out of state private source, because he was not in his state of residence at the time and no form 4473 and no NICS check means he was buying from a private party and not from an FFL. The private seller is actually under NO obligation to verify the state of residence of the buyer. The private seller is only under the obligation to not sell to a person known or reasonably suspected to be an out of state resident (according to most states' laws).

The decision is totally yours, however. You will be the person committing the felony.