ABC Reporter arrested after having CCW onto school premise
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Brad Johnson
Member
Actually, you do. In most states anyway. The sidewalk is your property but part of your deed restrictions establishes an easement for public access. Same with the alley. The property line extends to the center of the alley but the easement in your deed establishes the alley for public access/use.
So, you own it and are responsible for maintaining it, but it's still a public place.
Brad
[email protected]
member
Simple, it is against the law, even if you have a concealed carry permit, to carry a firearm onto school property. Is there anyone in this universe that doesn`t know this?
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Well, everyone in Utah apparently doesn't know it, since it's legal there.
I'm pretty sure it is legal in California as well, if you have a concealed carry permit.
Maybe your knowledge of the universe does not extend so far as you might think?
From a random news article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18355953/
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Could you please explain then the cited FL law which says the opposite?
BTW: To further shoot down universal application, you can carry on property here in TX, just not into a structure.
AntiqueCollector
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Carrying on school grounds is fine in Vermont too. Just can't go into a school building armed unless you fall into one of the exceptions in the law (LEO, permission from the school officials for a specific reason, etc.). It is not universally illegal in the U.S. to carry on school property. It caries by state and there is the Gun Free School Zone law from the feds to add to the mix though I know of no cases here in VT of peaceful armed people being charged with violating it despite there being no permits issued in this state, for whatever that's worth.
NotPbFree
Member
The sidewalk is a public place as is the street.
If I am standing outside the Post Office on the sidewalk with a concealed weapon with a valid carry permit, I should not expect to be arrested for carrying in the Post Office. How is a sidewalk in front of a school any different?????
False Arrest and Abuse of Power = Big Lawsuit.
If I am standing outside the Post Office on the sidewalk with a concealed weapon with a valid carry permit, I should not expect to be arrested for carrying in the Post Office. How is a sidewalk in front of a school any different?????
False Arrest and Abuse of Power = Big Lawsuit.
Sistema1927
Member
Is there anyone in the universe (other than the goons in question) who believes that law abiding citizens conducting themselves in a peaceful fashion should be molested by the authorities on a public sidewalk?
tnieto2004
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Was he on school premises?? As far as I understand he was not on school premises?? The title of the thread is a lil misleading
SilentArmy
Member
Amen Texasrifleman. My wife is a school teacher and when I visit her @ school, I am armed as I am always and I do not worry about the black helicopters coming!
Daggertphi
Member
Looking in my thesaurus, "school-board police" is listed as synonymous with "off duty mall-ninja."
karz10
Member
Well, it will be interesting to see how it plays out, and it seems the biggest point of contention on this thread is whether or not the sidewalk is school property, public property, school property but void of restrictions as it's a public area, etc.
Seems to me that regardless of whether this guys is technically on the right side of the law or not, that he's on the right side of the ethical CCW experience, and we should all take notice of the fact that there is even a debate about his situation.
To those that say it isn't a gun issue, I disagree, it may not have started out as a gun issue, and maybe shouldn't have escalated into one, but it is one now. Granted, there is still the original issue of whether or not he was on public property, and whether or not he had a legal right to refuse the officers 'request' or 'order' to go across the street. That is a legal question in and of itself. However, now that the gun is in play, there is also a related, but separate GUN ISSUE now.
The bottom line, to me, is all this gray area regarding where citizens can legally carry. I live on the border of NC and SC, so I have to keep up w/ two sets of state laws for firearms in general, let alone transporting and carrying legally, let alone the laws governing the actual USE of said weapons, i.e. self defense, etc.
So this issue is of particular interest and annoyance to me. In my case, I'm faced with daily annoyances that affect my ability to carry and or conceal on my person or in my vehicle, a defense firearm, in order to perform daily functions. Forget all the government buildings and courthouses for a second, just look at daily places for common people, schools and restaurants.
I work, I eat, I get my daughter from school, I eat, and start all over again.
So, since I'm no chef, if someone's not cooking for me, I'm likely going to eat out or on the go. I'm long since tired of fast food, and if possible prefer to eat the best restaurant equivalent of 'real food' whenever possible, be it for lunch or dinner.
Then, on the days I get my daughter from school, that usually means the wife is unavailable, working etc., which then means I'm responsible for the nourishment of not only myself, but the little one too. If I won't/can't cook ( try but have a limited menu of creations that get old fast, so at some point have to resort to other options) for myself, then I really need help to feed the two of us.
So, not only can I not carry to pick up my daughter, but I can't carry in many of the restaurants here because they also happen to sell beer. So, that's the basic outline, but now you try to figure out how to work with the law, while still protecting you and yours. So, my laws say I can't carry at the school, so I leave the weapon in the car, am I ok in the parking lot, or do I have to park across the street? So what if you go to a restaurant and don't realize they even sell beer, there's no liquor sign in the window, there's nothing you can see from the outside to tell you whether or not they sell alcohol, so you have to leave the firearm behind to be on the safe side, or you have to go inside and see if they sell, potentially breaking the law in the process.
So, let's say you're in your own car, try to obey the law, now I have to discretely from young child's view, and from public passerby view, remove my weapon from it's legally concealed position, handle a loaded weapon, and proceed to conceal it in the vehicle, so I may exit vehicle and enter establishment. So, you're risking scaring someone seeing you handle your weapon and then causing an issue, you're risking becoming a target of personal or property crime if a criminal sees you disarm, and leave your weapon behind. We all know gun crimes are committed with, for the most part, stolen weapons, but yet while the law makers complain that too many accessible guns equal too many stolen guns to later be used in other crimes, they write laws forcing us to leave said weapons behind to be stolen from our homes and vehicles when we're away, and leaving us unprotected in the process.
And what if you're not in your own car, maybe riding with someone, or walking, or whatever. You're hungry, or with people that or going into a restaurant, but you're carrying. Concealed is supposed to be concealed right, but now you have to choose to break the law, have an uncomfortable (for some) conversation w/ whoever you're with about why you can't go there, or leave your firearm in their car, or the other example you have no car, there's no where to leave it. I'm just saying it's way too complicated, for seemingly no real benefit to anyone for having these laws. And as for the school thing, in the states where the law extends to the school's property, sidewalk, street, parking lot, x number of feet, or whatever, what is anyone, faculty, parent, or otherwise, supposed to do to protect themselves to and from work, even if they're in agreement to not carry 'into' the school. Let alone the popular theory here (which I agree with) that having legal CCW in schools for legal permit holders would pose a serious deterrent to the psychos that plot to reak havock in these 'gun free zones'
Then there's countless threads in multiple states about the 'signs' whether you're state has special signs that really mean no CCW, or whether your state can say any scribbled sign is valid saying no CCW, and people argue over the rights of property owners, whether they can restrict you from the store for carrying, and whether there is a crime involved or not.
I think we should all work to have all the 'gun free zones' eliminated, and any time there's someone caught in any gray area like this, we should support them to the extent we can, unless they've given us cause not to, and cite these examples to their local officials and media, as well as our own, that these restrictions are not logical, don't serve anyone's best interests, and complicate legal citizen's lives to the point that they will either risk the citizen's lives by not allowing them protection, or by ruining their lives by getting caught in a technical infraction of a law they were trying to obey.
Regards,
Karz
Seems to me that regardless of whether this guys is technically on the right side of the law or not, that he's on the right side of the ethical CCW experience, and we should all take notice of the fact that there is even a debate about his situation.
To those that say it isn't a gun issue, I disagree, it may not have started out as a gun issue, and maybe shouldn't have escalated into one, but it is one now. Granted, there is still the original issue of whether or not he was on public property, and whether or not he had a legal right to refuse the officers 'request' or 'order' to go across the street. That is a legal question in and of itself. However, now that the gun is in play, there is also a related, but separate GUN ISSUE now.
The bottom line, to me, is all this gray area regarding where citizens can legally carry. I live on the border of NC and SC, so I have to keep up w/ two sets of state laws for firearms in general, let alone transporting and carrying legally, let alone the laws governing the actual USE of said weapons, i.e. self defense, etc.
So this issue is of particular interest and annoyance to me. In my case, I'm faced with daily annoyances that affect my ability to carry and or conceal on my person or in my vehicle, a defense firearm, in order to perform daily functions. Forget all the government buildings and courthouses for a second, just look at daily places for common people, schools and restaurants.
I work, I eat, I get my daughter from school, I eat, and start all over again.
So, since I'm no chef, if someone's not cooking for me, I'm likely going to eat out or on the go. I'm long since tired of fast food, and if possible prefer to eat the best restaurant equivalent of 'real food' whenever possible, be it for lunch or dinner.
Then, on the days I get my daughter from school, that usually means the wife is unavailable, working etc., which then means I'm responsible for the nourishment of not only myself, but the little one too. If I won't/can't cook ( try but have a limited menu of creations that get old fast, so at some point have to resort to other options) for myself, then I really need help to feed the two of us.
So, not only can I not carry to pick up my daughter, but I can't carry in many of the restaurants here because they also happen to sell beer. So, that's the basic outline, but now you try to figure out how to work with the law, while still protecting you and yours. So, my laws say I can't carry at the school, so I leave the weapon in the car, am I ok in the parking lot, or do I have to park across the street? So what if you go to a restaurant and don't realize they even sell beer, there's no liquor sign in the window, there's nothing you can see from the outside to tell you whether or not they sell alcohol, so you have to leave the firearm behind to be on the safe side, or you have to go inside and see if they sell, potentially breaking the law in the process.
So, let's say you're in your own car, try to obey the law, now I have to discretely from young child's view, and from public passerby view, remove my weapon from it's legally concealed position, handle a loaded weapon, and proceed to conceal it in the vehicle, so I may exit vehicle and enter establishment. So, you're risking scaring someone seeing you handle your weapon and then causing an issue, you're risking becoming a target of personal or property crime if a criminal sees you disarm, and leave your weapon behind. We all know gun crimes are committed with, for the most part, stolen weapons, but yet while the law makers complain that too many accessible guns equal too many stolen guns to later be used in other crimes, they write laws forcing us to leave said weapons behind to be stolen from our homes and vehicles when we're away, and leaving us unprotected in the process.
And what if you're not in your own car, maybe riding with someone, or walking, or whatever. You're hungry, or with people that or going into a restaurant, but you're carrying. Concealed is supposed to be concealed right, but now you have to choose to break the law, have an uncomfortable (for some) conversation w/ whoever you're with about why you can't go there, or leave your firearm in their car, or the other example you have no car, there's no where to leave it. I'm just saying it's way too complicated, for seemingly no real benefit to anyone for having these laws. And as for the school thing, in the states where the law extends to the school's property, sidewalk, street, parking lot, x number of feet, or whatever, what is anyone, faculty, parent, or otherwise, supposed to do to protect themselves to and from work, even if they're in agreement to not carry 'into' the school. Let alone the popular theory here (which I agree with) that having legal CCW in schools for legal permit holders would pose a serious deterrent to the psychos that plot to reak havock in these 'gun free zones'
Then there's countless threads in multiple states about the 'signs' whether you're state has special signs that really mean no CCW, or whether your state can say any scribbled sign is valid saying no CCW, and people argue over the rights of property owners, whether they can restrict you from the store for carrying, and whether there is a crime involved or not.
I think we should all work to have all the 'gun free zones' eliminated, and any time there's someone caught in any gray area like this, we should support them to the extent we can, unless they've given us cause not to, and cite these examples to their local officials and media, as well as our own, that these restrictions are not logical, don't serve anyone's best interests, and complicate legal citizen's lives to the point that they will either risk the citizen's lives by not allowing them protection, or by ruining their lives by getting caught in a technical infraction of a law they were trying to obey.
Regards,
Karz
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I agree. Notice in the update video from the TV news that the gun seems to get as much talk as anything, even interviewing the cameraman about why there was a gun and what kind it was.
It's a gun issue 100%.
dhoomonyou
Member
He needs to call Jon Gutmacher.
[email protected]
member
You mean to tell me that a ordinary citizen can carry a weapon onto school premisis in Utah and it`s legal?! Wow, thanks for the info. You really didn`t have to make such a sarcastic remark though. I really thought that it was a federal offense in the United States to carry a weapon onto school property, permit or not, unless you are a hired employee such as a security guard. If that`s what you`re refering to then yeah, I know that, but an ordinary citizen, I didn`t know that but I will check my law books and see what I`ve missed and get back to you.
Thanks again for your kind input on my dumb comment.
woodstock,
It's legal to carry onto school premises in Oregon, too, with a carry permit. (But you might get fired for doing it, if you're a teacher -- that's what all the uproar is about in the Shirley Katz case.)
Here in Washington, it is legal to carry onto school property "while picking up or dropping off a student," if you have a CCW. Although it's not specifically written into the law, the general understanding & enforcement of that law is that it's okay to carry in the parking lot, but not into a building.
America is an awfully big country, and the gun laws are a real patchwork.
pax
It's legal to carry onto school premises in Oregon, too, with a carry permit. (But you might get fired for doing it, if you're a teacher -- that's what all the uproar is about in the Shirley Katz case.)
Here in Washington, it is legal to carry onto school property "while picking up or dropping off a student," if you have a CCW. Although it's not specifically written into the law, the general understanding & enforcement of that law is that it's okay to carry in the parking lot, but not into a building.
America is an awfully big country, and the gun laws are a real patchwork.
pax
ClickClickD'oh
Member
The Federal law is only in effect if the person posessing the firearm is engaged in interstate commerce.
Additionally: The Governments official position on 922(q)
In FL, you can get cited with resisting officers without violence????
As for this guy...Bravo...with all the recent school shootings, I'd think you'd want to be armed in order to go into a school.
Also, just a thought, what constitutes school property? 500 yards from school buildings, 1,000 yards? 1 mile? where does it stop??
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
You mean like this one you made first?
Sorry dude, just giving back as received
It's all in fun, no offense intended.
It's not necessarily dumb, the gun laws in this country can make a person's head spin, and of course the Gov would like nothing better than for you to have the PERCEPTION that carrying in a school is illegal no matter what.
But luckily for some, it's just not true.
craig
Member
i used to live in miami.
considering the school and the surrounding area he was outgunned by at least 2/3rds of the student body and most of the neighbors.
considering the school and the surrounding area he was outgunned by at least 2/3rds of the student body and most of the neighbors.
I am confused even reading the link above. Would you please explain the Federal Law aganist firearms and schools. I have NEVER understood this. I think that is by purpose. There is NO way some normal citizen can know when they are and when they are not breaking the law anymore. Just read some of the CRIMES people are charged with. Most of us have never heard of such a crime. I am not just talking about firearm laws either. They sound as made up as the names of laws the Congress pass. They seem like jokes for the foolish citizens.
larry_minn
Member
I just read first couple posts. My thought is this. How many of you KNOW where EVERY sq INCH of school property is?
About 25yrs ago I got the chance to look that over for my area. It AMAZED ME. There is "School property" in a area where hunters often park before going pheasant/deer hunting. (maybe 10 people KNOW this is school property around here) So they have loaded guns/knives on it.
Some of this land is old country school property. Other is land donated to school.
I regret I have not had (permission) to carry on school grounds in last decade. I never talked to new Principal/superintendent to update my letter. Far as I know I was only person who could carry (other then LEO) at both towns/schools. All it takes is permission from them (I wanted written for CYA)
About 25yrs ago I got the chance to look that over for my area. It AMAZED ME. There is "School property" in a area where hunters often park before going pheasant/deer hunting. (maybe 10 people KNOW this is school property around here) So they have loaded guns/knives on it.
Some of this land is old country school property. Other is land donated to school.
I regret I have not had (permission) to carry on school grounds in last decade.
I never talked to new Principal/superintendent to update my letter. Far as I know I was only person who could carry (other then LEO) at both towns/schools. All it takes is permission from them (I wanted written for CYA)Barr
Member
It would be a stretch to say that he was trespassing and it would certainly be a giant leap to say he was carrying a concealed weapon on school grounds.
If the government/school could show a reasonable suspicion that he was intending to proceed on school grounds with the weapon on his person they might have a case. Otherwise, this case will most likely be thrown out of court.
If the government/school could show a reasonable suspicion that he was intending to proceed on school grounds with the weapon on his person they might have a case. Otherwise, this case will most likely be thrown out of court.
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