Able vs Disabled

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mercop

Member.
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Messages
663
Location
The hills of PA
This past weekend at the edged weapon course in Indianapolis we were talking about some of the things that could likely lead up to and justify the use of deadly force. One thing that can add to the totality of circumstances is someone who is able-bodied attacking someone who is disabled. When we hear someone say disabled our minds eye can have a tendency view someone that has a visible handicap or debilitating injury. That may only be the case some of the time.



In the beginning of all courses we have people fill out student contact sheets that include them listing injuries and allergies. Some of the most common issues include back, neck, shoulders, elbows and knees. The first two no only hinder mobility but aggravation can lead to central nervous system issues and possible paralysis. Aggravating a shoulder or elbow injury could severely hinder your ability to defend yourself or retain your weapons. Everyone needs to take an inventory of his or her physical condition and consider it in their overall personal protection plan.



Consider a scenario that starts off with you defending yourself against an open hand attack during which you move backwards and fall over a curb. As you hit the ground your eyes slam shut, with your arms stretched out to break you fall you land. You feel pain shoot down your back and into your legs. Just as you realize that you have severely injured your back you open your eyes only to see your attacker rushing you. What began as a fistfight has now escalated to what could require you to use the deadly force of a gun or knife to save your life.



Another common scenario is someone being punched or kicked repeatedly in the head. Any reasonable person would conclude that loosing consciousness might require the use of deadly force on your part to survive.


Even an able bodied person can be disabled in fractions of a second.
 
It drove me nuts to discuss this was an instructor in my CCW class. He just didn't want to answer the question, as he wasn't sure about case law on this.

I'm 145 lbs, soaking wet. I consider this a disability in that I wouldn't be able to last long against someone bigger than me, or multiple attackers.

Problem to me has always been what you described with falling and losing your sight. By then it may be to late. I wish there was a distinction between brandishing and defensively making a statement to STOP NOW.
 
Multiple attackers alone can also be used to justify deadly force. So can a man vs woman. Or the introduction of a weapon. Disparity of force/size can and has been used to justify many shootings.- George
 
Still wouldn't hurt to yell "RAPE" if a situation happens to you.

I'm not far from places that closely resemble scenes from Deliverance...:uhoh:
 
Another common scenario is someone being punched or kicked repeatedly in the head. Any reasonable person would conclude that loosing consciousness might require the use of deadly force on your part to survive.
Click to expand...

I agree. So at what point DO you decide that the use of deadly force is required?

If you find yourself at the point of loosing consciousness - you're probably too late.
 
The moment of decision for Deadly Force usually probably is a moment that is going to be slightly different for each person placed into that situation.

At some point in a fight there is going to be a tipping point. If nothing is introduced into the battle such as a weapon prior, then it's over.

I recall a friend who had a kidney operation and lives on just one. We would spar a little bit while learning how to fight. Unfortunately, I kept zero'ing on that person's one kidney because that will be the thing that brings him down. He was to improve greatly his thinking and tatics designed to defense.

If a actual attacker knew about this person's kidney situation and attacked with intent to destroy it, then it's not a equal fight. It is attack with intent. If the person with disability matched that attack with a gun or weapon and survived... I say well done. He aint gonna allow anyone to get through to the one disability in a otherwise fit person.
 
mercop said:
Another common scenario is someone being punched or kicked repeatedly in the head.
Click to expand...

You should have gone BANG! already. There isn't any law anywhere that says you have to get the s|-|it kicked out of you before you can defend yourself. The whole =point= of self defense is to prevent YOUR injuries.
 
I understand that. But it needs to be trained for using force on force. So you would "go bang" if you were just punched?- George
 
If someone was to swing on me or the wife, I will probably have to draw because with the wife's medical situation and my own situation neither one of us can withstand a punch. And we aint gonna stand there and find out No sir.

If the attacker backs away because he has no gun, I will not shoot him down.

The problem for me or wife is if the attacker WONT stop despite being held at gunpoint or does not care.

If attacker deploys a weapon in a snake fast movement with clear intent as fast as possible, there is no question that shoot will happen.
 
Last edited:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disparity

dis·par·i·ty (d-spr-t)
n. pl. dis·par·i·ties
1. The condition or fact of being unequal, as in age, rank, or degree; difference: "narrow the economic disparities among regions and industries" Courtenay Slater.
2. Unlikeness; incongruity.


Software - again.

One is wise to Investigate & Verify their locale and jurisdictions as to how disparity is defined and interpreted.

I suggest not only calling local Attorney General, also visiting with not only a Prosecutor also a Criminal attorney, and, actually sitting in a courtroom while a case is going on.

Re: Force to defend.

Again, one needs to investigate and verify.

It one thing to be a stropping , healthy, 25 year male full of vinegar and piss, and then add the same male on crutches for a broken foot, or having his 3 year old daughter in his arms or assisting his 75 year old grandma - when evil decided to prey.

Add...

A 70 year old male might use his $10 Drug Store Cane to defend himself . Upon further review, the legal system might wonder, and push this case even further.
Striking once, or twice might have stopped the threat, or allowed the 70 year old male to evade.

Witnesses and Investigation might bear out, he held onto the young punk, therefore not allowing the young punk to run away and instead the 70 year old man kept hitting the punk, which caused brain damage due to "blunt force trauma".

I don't care what your Hardware is, you have use Software first,
continue to apply Software "through" situations, all the way from preventing yourself from being Prey, evading Prey, dealing with Prey, and the aftermath of dealing with Prey, with First Responders, Witnesses, Judge, Court, Jury...
...financial, emotional, family, jobs, friends....
 
The thing is that if someone is going to punch you they need to be at contact distance. That means you will have to do something to create the time and distance needed to draw your pistol.

Keep in mind that if you are able bodied and and facing one unarmed person you going to likely have severe repercussions if you use deadly force unless the assault is part of a strong arm robbery or abduction. - George

Edited to add, well said SM.
 
Keep in mind that if you are able bodied and and facing one unarmed person you going to likely have severe repercussions if you use deadly force unless the assault is part of a strong arm robbery or abduction.
Click to expand...

Also keep in mind that a single punch to the head can be fatal - more frequently than you may suspect.

There is a local case regarding that very issue. In today's paper, the county prosecutor stated he sees 4-6 "one-punch homicides" a year [in this county alone]. I'm not certain of the accuracy of that statement - but it apparently isn't too uncommon.
 
I am pretty familiar.

During the course we had a few people fall. Force on force was done in the grass so it was not that big of a deal. Earlier in the day we spoke about how people cross their feet when moving backwards and fall during force on force and for real. We also discussed the need to know how to fall. During one force on force our oldest student, a doctor in his 60's but in very good shape fell backwards and landed on his but and outstretched hands. If that had been him trying to gain distance during an assault in a parking lot he would have likely injured his tailbone and injured his hands/elbows. That is just how fast an able bodied person can become disabled. It all happened because he crossed his feet while moving backwards. This is VERY common and spawned the following drill we do in our Combative Pistol course.

We do something called the One Gun Drill. You start on your back with a holstered blue gun. The scenario is just this, you are involved in an altercation and knocked to your back and now injured against an unarmed attacker. As you are on the ground your firearm becomes exposed and a fight ensues. Both your hand and the bag guys hands are on it. You need to decide whether you are trying to draw it or retain it and he is trying to get it out and use it on you. Remember, if you carry a pistol and are involved in a altercation there is a gun involved in the fight.- George
 
Ive recently came off my 12 foot ladder and hit on back, I went ahead and converted the hit to a roll over and came back up on the feet. But my bell was rung and wife had to check me out.

It took half a day to get it sorted. There is only so much you can do to convert a fall to disperse energy into a roll over; either forward or backward.
 
Mercop, what's the reason for the "fistfight" in the original scenario? Doesn't that factor into the justification of whether you can use lethal force? e.g., professional thug giving innocent victim a beat down vs. two young and dumb kids who are going at it for some dumb reason? The problem with continuum of force and graduated response stuff is things can happen too darn fast...
 
So you would "go bang" if you were just punched?
Click to expand...

My best friend got into a "fight" a few years ago. He and his friend were walking down the sidewalk when a BIG guy (I think he was a wrestler or something?) came up and was being belligerent and whatnot. Long story short, my friend got knocked out with one punch to the jaw (the big guy threw the punch outa nowhere!). He fell backwards and slammed his head on the concrete which could have giving him permanent damage, or killed him! So waiting till after the first punch could be too late.
 
Guys, I am not saying it would never be justified.

What would be your opinion if a small statured male police officer or a female officer shot and killed a guy just because they punched them once in the face. What if they used the few cases given for justification? Just being the devils advocate.- George
 
mercop said:
I understand that. But it needs to be trained for using force on force. So you would "go bang" if you were just punched?- George
Click to expand...

Hell yes. Ideally I would have drawn -prior- to the punch. If the BG then continues with the punch ... BANG!

If I get blindsided with a sucker punch, BANG! is going to be the first response.

I am in fear of grievous bodily harm or death. In SC I have no duty to retreat from any place I have a legal right to be, but will retreat to avoid a confrontation. But once someone else =forces= a confrontation on me, I'm going to end it, quickly.

I am over 50, high bp, not at all athletic, not a fighter in any sense of the word. In any physical confrontation with anyone other than a grandma in a walker, I'm going to get my ass kicked.
 
When I saw the title of this thread, I honestly thought it was going to be about tactics for dealing humanely and legally with handicapped assailants. Such as, for example, the guy in the wheelchair who thinks you encroached on the handicapped parking space and decides to key your car and run his chair into you when you return. Against an able assailant, you would be justified around here in throwing him off you; against a handicapped man, it would look pretty poor for you to haul him out of his chair and dwarf toss him into a mudpuddle.
 
One thing most people do not count on is the average persons reaction to being hit. If you have never been punched before there is usually a "flash" of white that you see upon impact then a moment of disorientation. A single blow can put you out of the fight permanently, thus disabling you. It is easy to armchair quarterback on your response to force but until you are there you have no idea how you will respond, this is why we train. Training is in essence mentally and physically preparing yourself for how you will react (hopefully) to a scenario. Allowing muscle memory and developed "instincts" to take over.
 
And there are a growing number of people who go through school for 12 grades having NEVER been hit. (That is good, but also bad.)

And there is a growing number of people now and in the future who are aging and effectively out of the fight.

I second the assault vs Police Officer, very stupid thing to do and assailant deserves whatever he or she gets in return.

Now the Handicapped keying scenario, it would have to take TWO handicapped tagged cars fighting over it wont it not?

With the number of blue painted spaces in front of stores approaching an acre in size I think such a scenario is outrageous... however, upon futher thought...
 
posted somewhere---if you are in a fair fight than your tactics suck

i will fight and use the force necessary to prevent injury to myself and loved ones.
i will give any and everyone every chance to possible to break off from their attempt at doing me/mine harm. every situation will vary and thus being aware can allow time to defuse. can not count on this to happen every time so train for what may happen next.

Hungry Seagull--"" people who go through school for 12 grades having NEVER been hit. ""
yup-not even dodge ball. these peoples make good sheep, yes?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Elkins45
Physical force, deadly physical force, and knowing the difference in advance of the blow.
2
Replies
38
Views
1K
paladinFL
P
O
  • Locked
Self defense against non lethal weapons?
2 3 4
Replies
76
Views
2K
Strykervet
S
S
  • Locked
  • Poll
Disabilities, carrying, use of force
Replies
19
Views
922
Hardtarget
H
B
  • Locked
How far should one be able to run from danger?
2 3
Replies
66
Views
2K
Geno
G
G
  • Locked
For those who say not to have less-lethal options
Replies
5
Views
536
Triphammer
T
Back
Top