About Good Shotguns and Longevity.....

[Dave McCracken]

We had fun at PGC today with The Geezer League. Shot 16 yard singles, Handicap, and then a raucous round of Chinese Trap.

During the fun, I noticed a couple things.

First, since Superreverb didn't make it, I was about the youngest shooter. I'm a fortnight or so short of 59.

The oldest may have been Karl, or AJ. Both are octogenerians.

Most of the guns are also old. MY TB, 1978 vintage, was one of the newest.

Al's Model 21 was made in 1932.

Doug Kelly's enigmatic 20 gauge, heavily engraved SxS Parker was made in 1928. Why enigmatic? It's the only 20 gauge to leave the Parker factory with 24" barrels, an elevated vent rib, and tight chokes. We've yet to figure out what the original owner wanted it for.

Doug Humble's Model 12 is post WWI. He never bothered to get the number in to see when it was made.

Two other trap 870s were there today, neither with original wood.

AJ's Ithaca 4E was made in 1914, thus slightly older than AJ. In his hands, it crushes targets well.

Ron's BT99 was probably the newest there, and it was made in the 80s.

And the point to my scribblings? Simple.....

All of these have digested thousands of rounds, pretty much without any hiccups. Some of them, like AJ's 4E, maybe hundreds of thousands of rounds.

Good shotguns, well maintained, last an incredibly long time. And, they do so despite shooting small hills worth of shells.

Can anyone say the same about the new stuff and not lie?....

 

[foghornl]

Can't argue with that history. Well-made and properly cared-for 'shootin' irons' will last a loooooonnnnng time.

Brother's 1100 Rem auto, bought in 1969, is on its 3rd or 4th O-ring, but I think that is all he has spent to it, other than the sack-o-cash representing a small mountain of ammo and cleaning supplies.

 

[TrapperReady]

Good shotguns, well maintained, last an incredibly long time. And, they do so despite shooting small hills worth of shells.

Can anyone say the same about the new stuff and not lie?....

Emphatically "Yes"!

Don't get me wrong, as I love classic shotguns. I own and use shotguns which were manufactured before either of my parents were born (mom is nearly 80). I regularly shoot a couple 1920s-era Model 12s and a 1930 A5. I've also got an 870 which was made in 1958 (I think of it as "the baby of the bunch").

That said...

I also have some modern guns. Specifically, a couple Benellis, a Browning 425 O/U, an all-camo 870 Super-Mag and a Beretta 391. My wife is shooting a Beretta 682 Gold E O/U. All but the 870 have digested at least a couple thousand shells... many several times that amount. I've gone through nearly 7000 shells with the Browning since the beginning of 2005. It's lockup is tighter than most new guns. With a modicum of care, these guns show no appreciable mechanical wear. Furthermore, I've not had a lick of problem with functioning on any of them.

Please feel free to explain why I should expect them to start falling apart.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Fog, Bruce Buck wrote that an 1100 with absolutely nothing done to it but cleaning will last 35-40K rounds before things bust. If the owner changes rings, springs and so on, the number until destruction goes up dramatically.

New springs in an A-5 or Model 11 constitute a 10K rebuild, according to a smith I know.

TR, perhaps I should have phrased that better. However.....

7K rounds in a quality shotgun is barely a good breakin. 50K rounds will be a better gauge of how it'll hold up. All the ones you mention should pass that test standing up. In fact, even a crusty ol' reprobate like me will call the 391, 870 and those O/Us "New Classics".

My main point was that good equipment lasts. And lasts and lasts......

 

[Superreverb]

Man, I'm really bummed that I had to miss today's shoot. I'm getting over a nasty cold that I caught from my daughter (that she got from that great petri-dish that is first grade). I woke up feeling really out of sorts, dizzy, and tired. I spilled coffee beans all over the place while setting up the coffee maker. I decided right then and there that if I was too whacked out to make coffee, there'd be no way in Hell that I'd even attempt to put a firearm in a case, let alone go to the range and try to chamber so much as 1 round.

I was hoping to bring out my 11-48B 20-ga for a round of 16-yd trap and Chinese, but it was not to be. This lil baby is a 50's gun - B-grade, special order. I don't know how many rounds have been through it, but I'm guessing quite a few. Whoever special ordered it, originally, had it sent with a short bbl with a factory installed Cutt's comp and rib and a 28" full bbl with factory rib. Both bbls are serial numbered to the receiver. I figure Cutt's bbl for skeet/quail/dove, full bbl for trap/duck/pheasant. Don't know if that's truly the case (prolly never will) but that what older guns are all about.

She's an old gem, and she still works flawlessly. In the spirit of this thread, that's something, right there.

Ed

 

[TrapperReady]

Dave - Perhaps I should have been more clear. The 425 has 7000 or so just this year. I've been shooting it for several years. I'd say it's broken in. The nice thing about shotguns is that they aren't "precise" weapons like rifles. Rifle barrels can exhibit decreased accuracy with a fairly low round count. Shotguns have to have a manufacturing defect, neglect or abuse to truly get worn out.

One thing I've often thought about it just how much many of the older guns were shot. I'm not talking about your ATA or skeet shooters... I'm talking about your average Joe. My dad, for instance, with the exception of his stint in the ETO in '44 and '45, was unlikely to shoot more than a few boxes of shells per season.

 

[Wags]

Back in the day when company's cared about the quality of there products and didn't cut corners, and workers took more pride in there work. Our society moves to quick today to give the quality of yester year. And company's are only out to make a buck no matter what they have to do to do it.

I enjoy hearing stories of older firearms when quality mattered. Thanks Dave.

Wags

 

[PJR]

Can anyone say the same about the new stuff and not lie?....

Yes I can.

I have owned two Beretta 682s. The first was a trap gun made in 1988 that bought from a friend who was in a financial crunch. This gun had over 70,000 rounds when I got it. I put about 10 thousand through it and then sold it. The current owner is a high volume shooter who runs about 10 thousand a year. This gun is easily past 100,000. The only parts replaced on the gun were the locking lugs when the top lever hit the center point.

The second gun, a sporting clays model, went about 70 thousand and the only thing that needed to be changed were two sears the result of a botched trigger job that had nothing to do with how many shells went through the gun. At last report, this gun is also still going strong in the hands of a new owner.

I am currently shooting a four year old Perazzi. It's around 40,000 rounds and from my perspective is just nicely broken in. A friend of mine has shot a Perazzi for close to 20 years, estimates well over 100,000 and has never had to replace a part.

Buy a good gun, maintain it properly and it will last whether it was made decades ago or just recently.

Paul

 

[45auto]

IMO, with O/U's anyway, the older models have nothing on the newer versions.

Meaning new Brownings, like the 425, will last as long as the Belgium ones. Perazzi's, Beretta's, kreighoff, etc are as good as the old ones. Some of the newer models are actually better IMHO. The Belgium Brownings are better finished no doubt.

You even have an auto, Beretta, that can rival an O/U, pump gun in reliability without cleaning. It won't last as long IMO as either, but more than most people shoot.

That's rare in consumer products in many ways.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Sorry you're sick, Ed. Try to make it next week, we're doing doubles.

TR, back when I did benchrest, most barrels were through in 3000 rounds. Freeboring the throat and loading to compensate might give one another 1000, but that was about it.

Many older guns have been shot just that box ot two per year. Pop went through maybe a case a year in his prime. But I was speaking of target guns here. That 21 is a trap grade, the 12 is also. The 4E is useless for anything else.

These were shot much. I'm sure your new ones will be also. Considering the advances in metallurgy just in my lifetime, they too may be Forever Guns.

 

[Onmilo]

And people wonder why FN/Browning Citori and Superposed shotguns are so very popular with their owners,,,,,,

 

[demusn1979]

grandpas old 1927 rem model 11,good as new!

 

[Okiecruffler]

My favorite SG (gun for that matter) is my 12g Stevens 311. It was made in 1953, bought new by my grandfather in 1954. It was his main work gun until 1983 when it became mine. I have no idea how many rounds he had run thru it, but there wasn't a season he didn't hunt. I've personally had many days when I ran over 100rds thru it. Thru it's life it has had 2 firing pin/spring changes and alot of TLC. Still looks purt near new. Not sure if you'll be able to say the same about the Russian/Chinese SXS's in 50 years.