about smokless....and c@b's

[1858rem]

i have looked through the reloading manuals and found the loads for 45 colt..... which is what the conversion cylinders shoot right?for a 44 rem anyhow. the pressure looked relatively low, about 7-10000 cup and arnt bp's proofed for 10000 cup? so why couldnt you load, as an example, 7 grains of unique into the cylinder and still be safe? i love the gun much but the cleaning is not at all convienent on school nights. well i went ahead and ordered 2 spare cylinders so i decider to try a few things with the cylinder the revolver came with. first, aside from many warnings i bealived that if the gun could handel a full cylinder of 777 why not half a load of unique for a 45 colt? well it was a extreemly inconsistant detonation. some would pop, others would BOOM. but it all seemed the same as far as unreliable ignition... btw i could only get with magnum #11 caps. and there was much unburnt powder. so i am done with attempting smokless loads...(my measure was a 22mag case which was just under half a colt load, by weight) but i was wondering why the ignition was so unreliable? next i will put a slight bevel on the cylinder mouth to squeeze the bullet in , that way i will not have lead rings clogging the core pin and action. one last question......do any manufactures still make a conical hollow point bullet that would fit under the loading ram of an 1858 remington if not do any of you have a reliable method of making hollowpoints from cast -lee 200 grain conicals-?

 

[hooey]

.45 Colt

I have shot over 50 rounds in my Pietta 1860 Army with a Kirst cylinder. The load was a 250 grain round nose flat point oregon trail laser over 7 grains of unique. Shoots fine.

 

[scrat]

your messing with a lot of things that can get you into some trouble. If you really want to shoot cartridge guns. Then you should buy a cartridge gun. If you like shooting black powder and are used to shooting black powder then you will appreciate using black powder. then in that case you should purchase a conversion cylinder. Then if anything else if your worried about time then you wait until you have more time. But please you need to follow advice given. As for why the unburnt powder and the poofs. Its a completely different type of ignition. even using half the load. The flash will go straight in the nipple if it doesnt go far is not hot enough and does not touch powder then it would not ignite. Thats where filler loads come into play to keep the powder back to ignite easilier. However im done with this thread. you shouldnt be messing around with things that people tell you not too

 

[Mr_Pale_Horse]

The pressure curve of smokeless will rapidly deform the mild steel used in bp implementations.

 

[PRM]

Caution???

Scrat gave you good advice! You are going to destroy a gun and maybe hurt yourself and others. If you want smokeless - buy a cartridge gun. Save yourself some money and grief.

 

[Old Fuff]

I also agree with scrat. It says "Black Powder Only" on the barrel for a good reason.

If these revolvers could be used with smokeless powder they would be proofed with smokeless, and reloading books would have data explaining what kind of powder to use, and how much of it. The lack of such should give you a big hint about what not too do.

 

[1858rem]

thanks for the info....the recoil was too, stiff, i guess id call it, at least to me, i have never actually shot a smokeless pistol before but i would suppose that is a major difference too as far as recoil goes. im done with messin around an jus gonna have safe fun the way it was designed to be had. and again thanks for the info....but why are conversion cylinders so much more expensive than regular cylinders, i dont think the steel and machining is worth $200 more than a standard cylinder... is it?

 

[scrat]

it is. For one they use arsonal grade steel. So its a lot different from trying to make one yourself. Or getting several cylinders and taken them to your buddys machine shop. The grade of steel is way stronger. Then your looking at a custom cylinder versus a normal cylinder. Now the cylinders that are on bp revolvers are also strong. they are too made of hardened steel which is way better than the steel that these were originally designed for. but its still different. The whole gun is not made out of arsonal grade steel. Take a Taurus raging bull. Compared to your black powder gun there is a huge difference. huge. To shoot a load that a .44 magnum could shoot would be suicide. even shooting a revolver with 45 colt. The 45 colt is nothing. As the load is 35 grains of black witha . 452 bullet. We all know 35 grains of black is a good load but its not way aggressive. But thats black powder. Smokeless powder is a whole different ballpark. When loading 45 colt. you pour in the powder then seat the bullet to the powder so there is no air gap. This makes for a good round. With smokeless you only need avg about 6 grains for a 45 colt depending on what powder. One of the biggest mistakes made when smokeless powder came out. People would fill the cases with smokeless and seat the bullet to the powder. when fired this would creat hand grenades. You can treat smokeless and black powder the same. even when shooting 45 colt out of a conversion cylinder you must use very light loads. When purchasing ammo you must purchase cowboy type of ammo if not using black powder. This is not to have a fatality. Its that serious. You have not shot a cartridge handgun. Go to your local indoor range and rent a 44magnum with box of shells revolver of course with a 3 inch barrel. then come back here and tell us the difference. I tell you what that 44 probably only has about 6 grains of powder in it.

 

[arcticap]

i love the gun much but the cleaning is not at all convienent on school nights.

Have you tried 777 or American Pioneer Powder (APP)? Under normal circumstances, these non-corrosive powders should allow you at least 1-3 days before cleaning is absolutely necessary if not longer. There were posts to that effect where someone tested not cleaning his gun for weeks after using similar non-corrosive sub. powders. I wouldn't recommend that long in a humid climate, but using them would certainly allow the delay of cleaning for the short term anyway [at your own risk of course! ].

but i was wondering why the ignition was so unreliable?

Even the new Blackhorn 209 powder, which was specifically developed for inlines utilizing 209 primers and is said to be a super clean substitute powder and akin to smokeless, won't ignite reliably if at all unless using the more potent 209 primer.
The Savage inline rifle which is capable of shooting smokeless powder also requires a 209 shotgun primer.
Each type of primer produces a measurable amount of hot gases which ignite the powder. If the volume and temperature of the hot gas isn't great enough, then the smokeless powder won't ignite reliably.

This is copied and pasted from another website posting:

On page 83 of DaveEhrig's book "Muzzleloading for Deer & Turkey", he lists some information on percussion caps and primers.

#11 standard cap - 6.53 cc of gas at 3,024 degrees F when fired.

#11 magnum cap - 7.59 cc of gas at 3,717 degrees F when fired.

U.S. #2 musket cap - 14.36 cc of gas at 3,717 degrees F when fired.

#209 shotgun primer - 21.98 cc of gas at 3,024 degrees F when fired.

#200 rifle primer - 11.68 cc of gas at 3,024 degrees F when fired.

And Toby Bridges came up with another method to measure the relative strength of different brands of 209 primers by shooting a patched .32 ball out of an inline without any powder at all, and he then chronographed the average velocity of 5 shots of each. It illustrates that even 209 primers are not all the same:

Winchester 209ML ........................221 f.p.s.
Winchester 209 Triple Seven ML.....244 f.p.s.
Remington 209 Kleanbore ML ........318 f.p.s.
Std. Winchester No. 209A ..............336 f.p.s.
Std. Remington No. 209 .................341 f.p.s.
Cheddite No. 209 ...........................347 f.p.s.
Federal No. 209A ...........................381 f.p.s.

And for comparison, we also ran the Precision Rifle "Vari-Flame" through this test, using both Winchester "Small Pistol" and "Small Rifle" primers.

Winchester WSP "Small Pistol" ........116 f.p.s.
Winchester WSR "Small Rifle" .........143 f.p.s.

http://www.Hpmuzzleloading.com/technical3.html

 

[Loomis]

What if someone is using a stainless ruger black powder revolver with a conversion cylinder? do they still need to be so careful? Those rugers look pretty strong to me.

 

[Voodoochile]

I personally like Black Powder weapons for what they are & what they are capable of "within reason" but Smokeless in even todays C&B revolvers without using one of the available conversion cylinders is sucide!

Scrat is right 100%, I've personally seen what can happen to a C&B revolver when a little smokeless is used in them "from a wall hanger that was on display in a Gunsmith Friends shop" & let me tell you it ain't pretty "from what I understand no one got seriously hurt from it but hospitalization was in order for the shooter."

Not the only reason but part of the equasion for the reliability & safety of Cartridge firearms using smokless is because in part the cartridge, the brass also helps absorb some of the pressure generated by the round & then transferred to the cylinder or chamber of the weapon, with the exception of the Savage rifle that is a Smokeless capable Muzzleloading rifle all muzzleloader should use black powder &/or an approved substitute "conversion cylinders being the exception but within a resonable ammount."

I'm rambling on at this time so I'll close with this..

Boy You Are Lucky That All You Had Was Some Inconsistent Ignition!
I would not trust that cylinder for nothing more than light loads from this time forward because you could have weakened it's integrity.

 

[mec]

I shot a bunch of revolvers and pistols with Goex Pinacle (sc) and cleaned them like modern guns. Never got any rust. The down side was that Pinacle was erratic in everything but heavy charges in a dragoon. Still, it would probably be more consistent than any smokeless load with the added benfit of not grenading the revolver.

Somebody in france worked up a percussion revolver designed to shoot 38 wadcutters over a charge of smokeless powder. His accuracy and velocity spread were far inferior to the expectation with traditional loads.

 

[Jamie C.]

aside from many warnings i bealived that if the gun could handel a full cylinder of 777 why not half a load of unique for a 45 colt?

And youngsters wonder why they aren't allowed to do certain things, or own certain things... *shakes head*

Black powder - and the substitutes that are intended to mimic it - are entirely different animals than smokeless powders. They have different burn rates, and different pressure curves.

And then there's the difference in volume between a cartridge case and the bare chamber of a BP gun.

Ever hear the term "Detonation"? Seems some light-loaded big-bore cartridge guns have blown up, over the years, with what should have been safe little "mouse" loads. Some folks claim that the reason for this is that the small amount of powder spread out too much in the mostly-empty case and ignited all at once, rather than burn in a controlled fashion, and create an intense pressure spike.

Is there any truth to it? I don't know. I'm certainly not gonna risk finding out by using half a .45 Colt load in a big ol' empty BP chamber though.

Here's a little bit of free advice that might actually help you get to be an old man, if you follow it:

Whenever you see a warning on anything, advising you not to take a particular action... pay attention to it and don't do whatever it's telling you not to do.

Because strange as it may seem to you, it's highly likely that the person or persons that put that warning there probably know a great deal more about it than you do.



J.C.

 

[sundance44s]

A black powder 45 case loaded with 34grs of black and a 255 gr bullet on top is by no means a tame pussy cat load ...anyone that thinks they are just hasn`t shot any ....The Army reduced it 45 loads down to 25 and 30 grs of powder and used fillers for the air space for a reason ...the guys didn`t like to pratice because of the heavy recoil ....If you have never shot any I suggest you buy a conversion cylinder and give them a try ....you won`t see the need for a bigger better hand gun ...It`s very impressive .

 

[Drgong]

smokless and BP guns do not mix.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

stick with BP or a sub with that '58 - otherwise you are asking for trouble.
I have used Pyrodex 'P' in my ROA and '58 with good results when shooting a firmly compressed load. but the real deal BP is cheaper and cleans up easier. a stiff charge of powder in the C&B revolvers has some power, believe me.

 

[StrawHat]

(Pardon the thread drift)

A black powder 45 case loaded with 34grs of black and a 255 gr bullet on top is by no means a tame pussy cat load ...anyone that thinks they are just hasn`t shot any ....The Army reduced it 45 loads down to 25 and 30 grs of powder and used fillers for the air space for a reason ...the guys didn`t like to pratice because of the heavy recoil ....If you have never shot any I suggest you buy a conversion cylinder and give them a try ....you won`t see the need for a bigger better hand gun ...It`s very impressive .

sundance44s, while I agree with the sentiment regarding the 45 LC black powder ballistics, I cringe every time I hear of somebody buying such a conversion for their colt clone. The design of the gun was not made to handle such power.

The 1872 was offered in 44 Colt for a reason. It duplicated the power of the 44 C&B.

The 45 LC is in a class by itself and needs the extra engineering of the Model P to safely get the full benefit of the cartridge.

Just my thoughts.

As for the OP idea, do not do it. Guns are easy to rebuild. Hands are not, and no where near as good after the rebuild.

 

[sundance44s]

StrawHat ...you have a good point ..I`ve switched my 45 colt loading down to useing the 45 Schofield brass ..it`s shorter so you only need 26 grs of black powder for a full case loading ...it`s much easyer on the guns . I`ve never used a conversion cylinder in an opentop Colt for the reason you wrote ...I might would use the Schofield loads in one ..they would be much more friendly to the guns design . It takes alot of time to load down the 45 Colt useing fillers . I grew tired of that idea real quick , and the Schofield brass works well in all my pistols and rifle chambered for the 45 LC...it would be closer to the original 44 centerfire cartridges back in the day ..in bullet weight and powder charge .
In my younger years I thought the 45 ACP 1911 was the power house pistol ...compairing the 2 ...I`ll take the 45LC single action over the 45ACP .

 

[scrat]

45 Schofield loads. You know what that sounds like a really good idea. 26 grains i like it. Darn you sundance now i have to buy some brass.

 

[scrat]

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=210604

21.99 for 100 ayyy i guess im getting them.

 

[1858rem]

Ok for one i was not aware each conversion cylinder was individually machined and therefore i believed costs could be cut through mass production machines. since these designs have been around about 130 years or so. also i was very careful about loading the smokeless- completely seating bullet on powder... i had no intention of machining out my other cylinders, just keeping two extra cylinders is enough extra loads that i wouldn't need a cartridge pistol. the 44 Remington mag shoots 8.9-12.1 grains of unique under a 245 grain bullet. also later that evening i realized that conversions are made from entirely different blocks b/c they are only 5 shot.... so you would be making cylinder walls way too thin in a sixgun. i was aware that brass cases would add strength to the chamber and later assumed that it would also aid in absorbing the shock of nitro as opposed to b p's "push". i normally shoot 25-32 grains 777 for target so i believe this cylinder will be ok w/small loads still....nothing over 30 anymore though. i have started loading paper cartridges too and use 27g 777 ,13g corn starch filler and a 200g lee conical which will be safe too. the last 7-8 years iv'e learned much about these guns and am glad to have found this site of many well informed shooters and reloader, btw i was wondering how many yrs gun and shooting experience scrat has . seems pretty damn smart to me lol. has anyone found a bullet better than the lee 200g or rb in the1858 far as accuracy goes? using bp of course. an im gonna try an find a range round' here but im deep in the stix and know of none locally.... especially for a 44 mag. btw we moved to the stix... i didn grow up here

 

[scrat]

Well i have been shooting for about 30+ years now. Reloading for im not too sure seems like a long time. Casting. Wow i thought about it a year ago. I believe i have probably casted over 100,000 bullets. That was a year ago when i figured this out. How many lbs of lead. OMG who knows. Made black powder. Yep been there done that. Experimented with different types been there done that. Worst black powder. ( well i can tell you that sugar does not work as a substitute for Sulfur). It burns but leaves a white substance behind. Other than that. i have read so much on shooting, loading, black powder shooting, loading. Then im on here every day talking and writing to these bums. ( i think i call Freinds). along with this forum i am on a whole bunch of other ones. One thing i can tell you. Is you can never get enough knowledge. Same time i can tell you is that a lot of things you want to try and experiment on. Some one has already done it. We have all thought of shooting with smokeless, we have all tried to change the curve, use the magic bullet try a different load. These guns have been around for about 140 years. So what you think is a good idea or a new idea. Chances are its not. Best thing you can do is always ask questions. always read what others write. You can learn alot from other peoples mistakes. Im not the best shooter around. Im not the most knowledgeable. However when i take an interest in something i tend to try to find out everything there is to know about what im doing. From the history, to who used them to how they were used. Everything. Some of these guys know a lot too. Gary for one. He has not posted any bed time stories. When he does though it means for some good reading. The guy knows a lot about civil war history.

Any how when you have the time. Welcome To THR. Now go pour youself a cup of coffee and sit back and relax.

 

[44-henry]

I personally think you should go out and buy a lottery ticket considering how lucky you are that that pistol didn't shatter in your hands. Even if you survived the encounter I would always be skeptical about the integrity of that gun and would approach firing it with a lot of caution (I would probably bury it somewhere that nobody would ever find it). Anyway I'm glad you survived the encounter and hope you learned something from the experience.

 

[scrat]

If it was a brass framed colt he should check to see if it has any stretch marks around the arbor shaft. Even if its steel. Its probably a good idea to check. Someone posted a good picture on impact on the base of colt revolvers. Dont remember who. I think it was a bras frame gun but at the base it had some big imprints of heavy loads.

 

[1858rem]

i had checked the frame n cylinder.... even checked the gap b4 an after to make sure all was good. as far as makin bp....done that too, but cause of the lower density you need more which is convent since you can simply fill the chamber for a compressed load of about 27 grains... and this doesn't require a measure either. i know so many people have tried new things that it seems there is a written document on almost everything... but if its not extremely hazardous(unlike my experiment which was stupid but i knew i woundn stop thinking about it till i tried... btw i only wanted a very light load for a possum or occasional crow at very close range but accuracy was too bad due to inconsistent ignition by use of caps instead of primers inside metallic case pockets) why not give it a shot and if you later find a document on it ... compare and share your new results.