About that SIG P229 Slide Fracture…
- Thread starter Dean Speir
- Start date
- Status
Quickloader
Member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2003
- Messages
- 23
I’m just as skeptical reading the GunZone article as some of you are. One thing that puzzles me a bit is, the article is on the GunZone page for some time now, and the subject well known and discussed, but I didn’t read a comment from SIGARMS anywhere yet; I suppose they (SA) are sneaking around the gun forums just like other manufacturers, and they should also be aware of Dean’s claims on his site, so why don’t they react to this? I would only be interested in knowing the technical facts, if there really happened anything actually, not for drawing any conclusions. SIG’s are well proven guns, if it’s true what Dean states, SIGARMS wouldn’t loose any ground in confirming his claims publicly combined with releasing the technical facts, quite the opposite is true. I contacted SIGARMS some time ago in this context but didn’t get any reply. I’m highly suspicious of Dean’s commentaries here too, but as long as no one proves him wrong, he has the credit of doubt, and therefore he’s right.
Quickloader
Quickloader
Who says Sigarms OR any other firearms manufacturer has an obligation to monitor the internet and respond to every ALLEGED incident that has occurred with one of their products, lest the allegation be allowed presumptive truth?
Are you aware of how much crap is spread on the internet that has absolutely no basis in fact? Do you know how much of a burden it would be to have to respond to all of it, no matter how baseless it might be?
Besides, that isn't the issue that is relevant here.
No one has stated that a slide fracture did not occur with a Sig-Sauer produced 229 chambered in 9mm in Switzerland, as Speir alleges.
The larger issue is whether A SINGLE SLIDE FRACTURE, even given the presumption of credibility, warrants the kind of dire warnings and claims of shoddy quality control that Dean Speir automatically elevates the incident to.
If such an incident, as someone else here stated, warrants such a "the sky is falling" response as Speir is notorious for, God help us all.
I have witnessed problems of some significance firsthand with at least seven different types of firearms. I have read about hundreds of others. Modern firearms are man/machine made, high production commodities, and subject to occassional problems, no matter how excellent the quality control measures put into place. Despite this, I don't go around posting links, pictures, and quoting unnamed sources blowing the incidents completely out of proportion like Speir has an apparent compulsion to do.
Some problems become frequent enough to warrant real concern and a credible response from a manufacturer. This was the case with the Glock frame rail issue.
Others are isolated incidents (in this case, one alleged, undocumented incident) that are to be expected.
There's no reason to make MOUNTAINS out of grains of sand.
I read about a kb with a HK USP Tactical using Federal .45 ammo just last week, and from a source I deem entirely credible. Do I plan on selling or trashing my beloved USP .45 because of this? Hell no.
Speir gets called on the carpet on issues all the time, and then just retreats to the security blanket of that website he set up. Why hasn't he been back to answer the last question I asked him, which is the central question in reality? Because he apparently can't justify his cries of "the sky is falling!"
Are you aware of how much crap is spread on the internet that has absolutely no basis in fact? Do you know how much of a burden it would be to have to respond to all of it, no matter how baseless it might be?
Besides, that isn't the issue that is relevant here.
No one has stated that a slide fracture did not occur with a Sig-Sauer produced 229 chambered in 9mm in Switzerland, as Speir alleges.
The larger issue is whether A SINGLE SLIDE FRACTURE, even given the presumption of credibility, warrants the kind of dire warnings and claims of shoddy quality control that Dean Speir automatically elevates the incident to.
If such an incident, as someone else here stated, warrants such a "the sky is falling" response as Speir is notorious for, God help us all.
I have witnessed problems of some significance firsthand with at least seven different types of firearms. I have read about hundreds of others. Modern firearms are man/machine made, high production commodities, and subject to occassional problems, no matter how excellent the quality control measures put into place. Despite this, I don't go around posting links, pictures, and quoting unnamed sources blowing the incidents completely out of proportion like Speir has an apparent compulsion to do.
Some problems become frequent enough to warrant real concern and a credible response from a manufacturer. This was the case with the Glock frame rail issue.
Others are isolated incidents (in this case, one alleged, undocumented incident) that are to be expected.
There's no reason to make MOUNTAINS out of grains of sand.
I read about a kb with a HK USP Tactical using Federal .45 ammo just last week, and from a source I deem entirely credible. Do I plan on selling or trashing my beloved USP .45 because of this? Hell no.
Speir gets called on the carpet on issues all the time, and then just retreats to the security blanket of that website he set up. Why hasn't he been back to answer the last question I asked him, which is the central question in reality? Because he apparently can't justify his cries of "the sky is falling!"
Grump
Member
Bravo Sierra Alert!!
Uh, I thought a photograph counted as a "document."
Statements from the witness to the event were reduced to writing in another document.
Another written document from another source was quoted at length in the Gun Zone article.
You won't believe it unless the source quoted was willing to be cited in print as the source? Then you surely won't believe any news article that quotes "unnamed Administration" sources, eh? Dean describes a tried and true responsible journalism technique--second-source verification of alleged "facts" before reporting them without attribution. Seems like some hacks named Woodward and Bernstein got a Pulitzer Prize for using precisely the same method to break the Watergate story. Oh, but maybe that's not a big deal and none of those facts could be "documented."
WELL, THOSE FACTS SURE AS HE dubbletoothpicks were substantiated and corraborated and all that, later on in sworn testimony, but that's all just what John Dean and Gordon Liddy and all those other guys "said" or "claimed" and there was NEVER a memo from Nixon or his campaign comittee to back it up, so that was never documented either. Apply your standards consistently...
Yeah, there is room for some healthy skepticism on what conclusions to draw from this one event which *could* be a mere specimen defect and might even be a manufacturing defect for some portion of the product line made in Europe. But some of this criticism is unreasonable and reveals a certain level of intellectual dishonesty.
Dean, how about getting some "Certificate of Authenticity" on the photo and the Euro quality problems communique, to satisfy these dweebs?
Edited to correct John Dean's first name.
Uh, I thought a photograph counted as a "document."
Statements from the witness to the event were reduced to writing in another document.
Another written document from another source was quoted at length in the Gun Zone article.
You won't believe it unless the source quoted was willing to be cited in print as the source? Then you surely won't believe any news article that quotes "unnamed Administration" sources, eh? Dean describes a tried and true responsible journalism technique--second-source verification of alleged "facts" before reporting them without attribution. Seems like some hacks named Woodward and Bernstein got a Pulitzer Prize for using precisely the same method to break the Watergate story. Oh, but maybe that's not a big deal and none of those facts could be "documented."
WELL, THOSE FACTS SURE AS HE dubbletoothpicks were substantiated and corraborated and all that, later on in sworn testimony, but that's all just what John Dean and Gordon Liddy and all those other guys "said" or "claimed" and there was NEVER a memo from Nixon or his campaign comittee to back it up, so that was never documented either. Apply your standards consistently...
Yeah, there is room for some healthy skepticism on what conclusions to draw from this one event which *could* be a mere specimen defect and might even be a manufacturing defect for some portion of the product line made in Europe. But some of this criticism is unreasonable and reveals a certain level of intellectual dishonesty.
Dean, how about getting some "Certificate of Authenticity" on the photo and the Euro quality problems communique, to satisfy these dweebs?
Edited to correct John Dean's first name.
I go through all the effort, and Grump still misses the point.
One incident of a slide fracture in a Sig-Sauer 229 does not equal a quality control or manufacturing defect crisis - whether the incident is doumented or undocumented.
I'll even concede the incident occurred even though I wasn't there; how's that?
I can not make it any simpler, Grump. I've spoon fed you and Dean, and will not burp you.
One incident of a slide fracture in a Sig-Sauer 229 does not equal a quality control or manufacturing defect crisis - whether the incident is doumented or undocumented.
I'll even concede the incident occurred even though I wasn't there; how's that?
I can not make it any simpler, Grump. I've spoon fed you and Dean, and will not burp you.
45R
Member
BluesBear
member
Please take your personal vendetta somwehere else.
Well since no one else will will say it I guess I'll have to...
Well since no one else will will say it I guess I'll have to...
Stephen A. Camp
Moderator In Memoriam
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,430
I would consider it a personal favor if the rhetoric could be toned down and if the discussion's to continue that it concern itself with firearm-related aspects and not bantering back and forth between individuals. If that's even necessary, I'd strongly suggest going to Email or PM.
Best and thanks in advance.
Best and thanks in advance.
Duke of Lawnchair
Member
LOL!!!!!
Stephen A. Camp
Moderator In Memoriam
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,430
I asked that this sort of thing cease. It didn't. The thread has.
- Status