Do you want a used SIG .45?

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skidmark

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http://www.timesdispatch.com/servle...031784149467&path=!news!crime&s=1031783565272

From the July 30, 2005 paper:

Henrico police plan to use smaller guns
.40-caliber pistols replace .45s; ease of use, reliability cited
BY MARK BOWES
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER
Saturday, July 30, 2005


Related
Audio report: Spokesperson for Henrico Police weapons

A change in police firepower is coming soon to Henrico County. Beginning next month, the county police department will end its 15-year relationship with German gun manufacturer Sig Sauer and begin one with Austrian gunmaker Glock.

As a result, the department will replace its standard-issue sidearm, switching from an eight-shot .45-caliber semiautomatic Sig Sauer pistol to a 16-shot .40-caliber Glock.

The decision was based on several factors, not the least of which was a growing concern about the .45's reliability, police said.

"We've had a lot of problems with the Sig Sauer .45 over the years," said Henrico Lt. G.H. "Hutch" Hutchison, the department's range director. "More recently it's been with magazine feeding problems, and we've had some major parts break in the guns."

"It got to the point where the officers' confidence in the weapon was somewhat lower that it should be," he added.

In response to a Freedom of Information request on the department's gun switch, Henrico Police Chief Henry W. Stanley Jr. released a written summary of the transition. The report said that in addition to magazine failures, other gun problems included:

signs of abnormal wear on weapons only a year old;
broken trigger springs, trigger bars and extractors;
a gun with an incorrect part installed.
Police said the problems surfaced during firearm qualification sessions for officers at the range. "We have never had a gun that has failed in a street situation," Hutchison said.

Sig Arms representatives worked with police to resolve the issues, including replacing all the guns' magazines, but the problems persisted and were never corrected to the department's satisfaction, the report said.

"While Sig Arms was unable to specifically identify what was causing the abnormal wear and parts and magazine failures, they indicated that the ammunition being used by the division might be a problem," the report said.

The department conducted "extensive ammunition testing," police said, and "did not identify the ammunition as a concern."

The department then began testing a variety of alternative weapons and decided on the .40-caliber Glock. The department is buying 557 of the Glock 22 models, and 50 of the slightly smaller Glock 23s.

The Glock "was the preferred weapon of the officers that we brought [to the range] to test-fire the guns," Hutchison said.

The Glocks were easier to handle for smaller shooters, especially female officers. A slightly smaller, lighter weapon was needed "as our police department becomes more diverse," Hutchison said.

Police also liked the .40-caliber round. It "in some ways ballistically outperforms the .45 ammunition we used to carry, as far as penetration and expansion," Hutchison said. "We felt the .40-caliber bullet was the best way to go because [it's] the perfect marriage of high capacity and large caliber."

The switch in guns will cost the department almost nothing, officials said. Town Police Supply of Richmond, the vendor supplying the Glocks, is taking the department's .45 Sig Sauer pistols in an even trade. The .45s are about 18 months old.

Each officer will receive a new gun, three magazines with 15 rounds each, a night sight, new holster and a magazine pouch. The value of those items to the department comes to more than $300,000.

The only expense the department will incur is $52,239 for new holsters and magazine pouches, but that money is coming from assets seized from drug dealers, police said. In addition, Glock has agreed to train the department's firearms technicians at no cost.

Officers will also get a new gadget -- a $100 flashlight attachment that fits on the end of their guns. Those were purchased separately several months earlier.

The devices will make it easier for officers to use their guns and flashlights at the same time. Instead of officers carrying a flashlight in one hand and a gun in the other, "their weapon will now have a light attached to it," Hutchison said.

Henrico police will be the third Richmond-area police agency to carry the Glock. Sheriff's deputies in Henrico and Chesterfield counties also use the gun.

Chesterfield police carry .40-caliber Sig Sauers, Richmond police carry .357-caliber Sig Sauers, and Richmond sheriff's deputies carry 9mm Sig Sauers. Hanover sheriff's deputies carry the .45-caliber Sig Sauer, the same weapon Henrico is replacing.

Henrico police will begin phasing in the Glocks the week of Aug. 22.


Contact Mark Bowes at (804) 649-6450 or [email protected]

Town Police Supply of Richmond is located at 3541 Courthouse Road, Chesterfield VA 23832 804-745-6433.

I don't work for them, but have bought stuff there before. They are a small shop but all my contacts have been positive.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
IMHO the only reason to switch from .45 to .40 is the reliability issue. If the .45 SIGs genuinely are having reliability problems - which I'd find surprising - they need to be replaced ASAP.
The Glocks were easier to handle for smaller shooters, especially female officers. A slightly smaller, lighter weapon was needed "as our police department becomes more diverse," Hutchison said.
AHA - the way procurement decisions are made today, this may be the over-riding factor.
 
"We've had a lot of problems with the Sig Sauer .45 over the years,"

Stone the heretic! We cannot tolerate such blasphemy!:evil:




A pity it's the wrong state or I'd go get myself another P220.
 
Huh... I thought Sig Sauer were in the top quality bracket with their pistols. I'm not a pistol shooter though, so am I misinformed?
 
They should have got HK .45's. :neener:

Yay, more cops with Plastic Fantastics...

I saw a cop with a Ruger P95, I wanted to hug him just for being diverse.
 
They are top notch, but some batches of 220s have had materials problems.

[nomex]
'course, once they start experiencing the famous Glock .40 cal kaboom, they might change their minds. :neener:
[/nomex]
 
I was going to post this article the day it came out, but I didn't want to start a ruckus. ;)

I didn't think they had any crime in Henrico anyway. :D

John
 
The only expense the department will incur is $52,239 for new holsters and magazine pouches, but that money is coming from assets seized from drug dealers, police said.
Really? Are we sure it was seized from drug dealers, or was it just seized from people who the cops said were drug dealers.

Grrrr. The police should never be allowed to keep any seized money or fines. Too much conflict of interest.
 
I was going to post this article the day it came out, but I didn't want to start a ruckus.

I didn't think they had any crime in Henrico anyway.

John

For those not from around here --

Henrico County sort of surrounds the City of Richmond, running from West to East across the northern border of the city. Henrico is split into the West End (rich, yuppie, think that is the good side of the tracks) and East End (semi-projects, redneck, luxuriates in being bad). There is a county office complex on each side, except for courts. Have to go to the West End for them.

Henrico County was the scene of the infamous/notorious jewlery-shop shootout years ago. Local guy had something like 20 different revolvers stashed around the shop. Some fools came in to rob the place. Suffice it to say the shopowner & his brother ran out of robbers before they ran out of ammo. Maas Ayoob wrote about it in one of his columns.

One more point - the cops in Henrico County wear their patent leather chinstraps wrapped up over the top of their roundtop hats. Always has looked dorky, but otherwise they seem to be nice enough.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Each officer will receive a new gun, three magazines with 15 rounds each, a night sight, new holster and a magazine pouch.

The only expense the department will incur is $52,239 for new holsters and magazine pouches,

If they are getting holsters and pouches with the Glocks, why are they spending $52,339 for holsters and pouches?

The value of those items to the department comes to more than $300,000.

Glock has agreed to train the department's firearms technicians at no cost.

For a $300,000 order I would train them too.

Officers will also get a new gadget -- a $100 flashlight attachment that fits on the end of their guns. Those were purchased separately several months earlier.

I wonder how much of the $60,700 for the flashlights is really coming from the $52,339 for new holsters and pouches. Actually I bet on an order of 607 flashlights they would probably get a $15 per discount, come out about even.

Also, how bad can the sigs be if they are able to trade them straight across and how big is the discount that Glock is giving?

The .45s are about 18 months old.

The department laid out for 607 Sigs 18 months ago? Got more money than any PD I've ever heard of.


Sounds like a boondoggle to me, maybe some entertaining went on, trips to the Bahamas or to Austria for the selection commitee?

I don't know, but it doesn't make sense to me.

DM
 
Based solely on comments I've read here and on other forums, I've read that most cops are not "gun people" and that typically police carry/duty weapons recieve far less care and attention than they should.

Granted, I want my weapons (and all objects, really) to be as reliable, durable, and high-quality as possible, but everything needs some amount of maintenance.

I'll bet that most of the problems can be traced to ammo as stated in the article, and poor or improper care/cleaning/maintenance techniques.
 
"Are we sure it was seized from drug dealers"

No doubt in my mind. We have plenty of drug dealers and plenty that get caught. There was one guy on Northside years ago handing out business cards with his home phone number on them. :banghead:

And I would like to compliment skidmark for mentioning Henrico County and the City of Richmond in the same post without saying that the city is a cesspool of crooks looking to rob the peace-loving suburbanites. Did I spell suburbanites right? Just kidding. <signed> IMintheCity


The Beverly Hills jewelry store shoot-out is worth googling up if you haven't read it. Here's a lead-in...

"Situation: Two particularly brutal and heavily armed criminals hit an upscale jewelry store--and meet a firestorm of armed citizen resistance.

Lesson: Sound planning beats seasoned perpetrators. Sometimes, the more firepower you have, the better. The best cops in the world can't help you if they aren't right there, right now.

December 2, 1994. William "Pappy" Head, 71, and Thomas Jefferson Salter, 56, are what today's young predators would call "OGs"--"Old Gangsters." Pappy is a known hit man, on parole after serving only a year of a five year sentence for conspiracy to commit murder, and both have a long history of robbing banks and jewelry stores. Salter has told his son he does it for the adrenaline rush. Both are members of a loose-knit gang of all-white robbers, killers and dope-runners known in the deep South as the Dixie Mafia.

Their target is Beverly Hills Jewelers, an upscale shop within sight of the Henrico County Police Department and the local FBI office on the outskirts of Richmond, Virginia. The store has already been cased for them the previous September by crooked carnival workers tied to the Dixie Mafia, when they were in town for a fair. It looks fat and easy. Pappy unlimbers his double-barrel, 12 gauge sawed-off shotgun and Tom draws one of the two handguns tucked in his belt, a 1911 .45 auto. They roll ski masks down over their faces and burst through the door.

They don't know that when they emerge, they'll be wearing body bags instead of ski masks."
 
Wow. Kinda sad. SIGs for Glocks ... I'm with Beethoven, though, in wondering if perhaps the department just had a really poor training program in firearms maintenance and care for the patrol personnel, a lack of "gun guys" among the patrolmen, as well as some really unskilled, untrained or otherwise unknowledgeable armorers, firearms trainers and range staff ...
 
:uhoh: Don't let our good friend Ala Dan see this thread or he may go up there to Virginia and tell them a thing or two about SIG/Sauer 45s. :uhoh:

:neener:
 
It's a good department. Just for the heck of it, I looked up the requirements for getting hired (beginning pay just over $36k) and took a close look at the Agility Test.

"6. Draw and Dry Fire the police weapon, five (5) rounds with strong hand and five (5) rounds with weak hand. (Police Officers must have the finger and hand strength to hold the police pistol in one hand while pulling the trigger.)"

I guess they'll teach them accuracy later on.

John
 
We had a local department that was issuing Sig 220's, and allowed 1911's to certain "grandfathered" officers. When that chief, a former Marine MP left, the new cheif came in (brass from a big city department), declared the Sig and .45 unsafe (never explained it). Got Glock .40's instead.
 
Broken Sigs are like ten second Hondas. I've heard of them, but I've never actually seen one...

If I had the money, I'd get one. But OTOH, if I had the money, I would have already bought the used P220 at the store I frequent.
 
As a result, the department will replace its standard-issue sidearm, switching from an eight-shot .45-caliber semiautomatic Sig Sauer pistol to a 16-shot .40-caliber Glock.

Does anyone else hear a KaBoom? I bet the next time you hear about that PD it'll be a story about how many poluice officers are on the DL (Disabled List). :neener: They should have stuck with the Sig. ;)
 
I know of a department here in Indiana, that had P220 for ten years and two years ago up graded to the Sig P220 ST (Stainless Steel). I recently heard of two of their 200 Sigs locked up after fireing a round. It happened on the range. Never ejected the spent cartridge and was unable to manually work the slide. Both went back to Sig. No real answer was given for why it happened.

One department armorer I talked to, belived that everything while in spec, was in to close of tolerances between the barrel and slide and the normal fireing of a round bound the action tight. He also went on to tell of how Glock is trying to get them to switch to Glock 22s. This with their current sidearms only a few years old.
 
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