Absolutely No Live Ammunition In The Training Area.

[shafter]

What does the "dry session" consist of?

 

[Choctaw]

Our agency uses unload barrels. Under the supervision of an instructor, you approach, drop your mag (firearm is still holstered), unholster, place the weapon in the barrel and rack the slide multiple times. The weapon is then holstered with the slide locked back. This way there are two people confirming a weapon is empty. The ammo and mags are then placed in a separate room.

If you have teammates who cannot abide by the rules then they need to be removed from the team. They are a hazard to themselves and everyone around them.

If the trainers are lackadaisical when it comes to gun safety, I would remove myself from the team.

 

[entropy]

He was Special Forces (and that was verified)

But the rest of the security team isn't. You are correct, Trunk Money, the ammo should be left in the Security Office after proving to an instructor (leader) that the weapon is cleared. I'd have probably said, "Look, I don't care if you are Larry Vickers, the rest of these people aren't. Let's stick to the fundamentals here and clear them before entering this room."

Your SF guy reminds me of this guy:

 

[Browning]

Now my question is "that IS the way it's supposed to be done right?" I'm not adding some extra curricular requirement when I say there literally should not be any live ammunition in that training room am I?

Yes, that's the way it's supposed to be done and no you aren't adding anything.

The only class that I've ever taken where it was not this way was a pistol class that took place in the middle of summer.

Because is was so hot (one guy got light headed and almost passed out for a second from dehydration and possible heat stroke) the instructor allowed us to load mags inside where there was air conditioning during the firing portion instead of it. However we'd already done the dry firing/malfunctions portion of the course. For the drills he just switched it and had us put our pistols out on the range (fenced in with no one else on the course and there were windows on that side of the building, so no one could take off with our guns) and had us load mags inside.

It was friggin HOT.

That's the only time where I've seen ammo in that room and even then the instructor took steps to separate the two.

I'm not sure why we didn't just cart the ammo out there, but he didn't want it out there. Wanted a certain rd count each time.

•••••••

The only thing that I can think of that you could do would be to continue bringing the safety violation up to their attention in a calm and reasoned way where you don't let yourself become angry.

Most adults don't like being told that they're not doing things the right way and that they're mistaken about something. They tend to get a little cranky about it. If you continue bringing it up that they're violating their own rules I think eventually you'll be successful and they'll start enforcing it. Often times how you say something is more important that what you say.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

What does the "dry session" consist of?

Proper draw
Proper grip
Basic manipulation
Magazine changes
Malfunction clearance using dummy rounds.
^^These are the two that scare me because God forbid someone grab the wrong magazine.
And dry fire.
Anything remotely resembling FoF they use a blue gun for.

What's odd is they follow the other safety rules. The designated safe direction is an outside block wall that faces a parking lot that faces a rock retaining wall that's 20 feet high. They're very picky about pointing out that they chose that wall for those specific reasons.

They don't allow anybody in class to point a real gun at anybody else ( blue guns only).

They enforce muzzle discipline. The muzzle has to be pointing at the safe Direction at all times even on the blue guns.

They don't allow anyone to go forward of "The firing line" even the instructors.

It's just this one area that they fall really short in. When I said something to the trainer about it before my little outburst he agreed with me but said nobody listens. When I said then you need to make them listen he just gave me "The Look".

It's like they think that having the magazines on some tables in the back of the room is enough

I agree they need a clearing barrel but I don't think they're ever going to get one

 

[ilbob]

I think it might be time to find another church before someone gets killed. It might be you.

 

[herrwalther]

When I was an instructor for a university shooting class/team, my firearm was always loaded. Except when being cleaned as part of said class. My case was to get students used to seeing loaded firearms and not training/inert firearms. The class met twice a week. We would do a classroom portion on Tuesdays which would go over anything that didn't require live ammo. Range day was Thursdays to go over what was covered in the classroom, with live ammo. If at any point I needed a firearm to demonstrate anything, I used another weapon other than my holstered one. Before any demonstration, it was shown clear or was previously cleared with a chamber flag placed inside.

The only way to avoid ammunition being smuggled into class is to check every student. One of the best ways to do this is to have a table in front of the students and have everyone lay down their weapon. Action/slide should be open and magazines (for semi-autos) should be next to it. Students should take a few steps back. Go down the line, and one firearm at a time inspect for rounds in the firearm and magazines. If you still feel like ammo is being brought into class, check students for extra loaded magazines in pockets etc.

 

[redbone]

Lemaymiami nailed it. A sign outside and a bouncer at the door. But then, that is enforcement, so it would be a policy change. And in my opinion, change for the good. I would be tempted to mention that its hard to see how anyone can be confident that the guns are unloaded when the owners can't follow simple written instructions in the first place.

A possible alternative would be to allow folks to check their mags at the door, and bring an extra empty mag if needed for practice.

RBH

 

[IlikeSA]

I'll tell you a story that happened to me, by me, when I was in a training scenario. We went to an abandoned school to work building clearances with sim rounds. Before we entered, we patted ourselves down, patted a friend down, and ran the hand held metal detector. I was selected to be a bad guy.

I select a sim revolver as my weapon, grabbed some sims, and went to find a dark hiding place so the people could clear the rooms and find me. I reached into my pocket and withdrew a couple of rounds. All but one fit, and when I got by a window, I saw it was a live round. It didn't load because of the nature of the sim guns and their barrels. It drilled in my head absolute safety.

On to your scenario, I am in complete agreement that it is an accident waiting to happen. Someone will reach in the wrong pocket, the wrong bag, or unload the mag but not the chamber. Make it clear that if the rules are not enforced, you will not be a part of the team. It could very well be you on the wrong side of the muzzle.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I think it might be time to find another church before someone gets killed. It might be you.

That's an absolutely ridiculous response. I can completely mitigate the risk by simply not attending the Friday night training. I don't need to find a new church.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

The only way to avoid ammunition being smuggled into class is to check every student. One of the best ways to do this is to have a table in front of the students and have everyone lay down their weapon. Action/slide should be open and magazines (for semi-autos) should be next to it. Students should take a few steps back. Go down the line, and one firearm at a time inspect for rounds in the firearm and magazines. If you still feel like ammo is being brought into class, check students for extra loaded magazines in pockets etc.

No one is "Smuggling" ammunition into class. They're showing up with their loaded carry weapons and unloading in class

 

[bearcreek]

No one is "Smuggling" ammunition into class. They're showing up with their loaded carry weapons and unloading in class

I'm a little confused I guess. The instructors stated that there is no live ammo in the training area. Are you saying that there is live ammo in the training area while the dry fire practice is being conducted?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I'm a little confused I guess. The instructors stated that there is no live ammo in the training area. Are you saying that there is live ammo in the training area while the dry fire practice is being conducted?

Yes.

Every time they do the training the the email states:

***** NO LIVE AMMO **** is to be brought to this session. We will be training with unloaded guns and Snap Caps (dummy/inert rounds designed for training). If you have your own Snap Caps, feel free to bring them.

and every time 3/4 of the people who show up, show up with a loaded gun. They then unload in the training room and leave they ammunition in the training room?

 

[coloradokevin]

There are times to train with ammo, and times to train without it. If the training is one of the "absolutely no live ammo" situations, then everyone needs to be checked and re-checked at the door, and their weapons flagged as clear.

In law enforcement we have live fire training, and we have training where no ammo is allowed. In the event that no ammo is allowed in a training environment, we alway have two individuals check the weapon as clear, and then we usually thread a piece of police tape through the magazine well to indicate that it has been checked. No ammo means no ammo: not in a magazine, not in a backup gun, and not in your pockets. If there is a security concern that dictates an armed person being in the group, then one non-participant is designated, and they don't unholster their gun unless a "real world" event occurs (in other words, they aren't participating in the exercise).

Now, I have no issue with someone showing up to a training event with a loaded weapon, just so long as they unload it when they are entering the "no ammo" training environment. A clearing barrel at the door and the double-check system I mentioned should resolve that issue.

 

[coloradokevin]

I do want to clarify one thing everyone that comes into the training room is required to unload their weapon and have somebody else verify that the weapon is empty and the chamber is clear. then they stack their magazines on a table or put it in the gun case or whatever.

Having said that though I still don't think that's safe. And again the rules say don't bring any ammunition into the training room.

The one time that I addressed the issue they went over the safety rules and then the head trainer asked if anybody had any safety concerns. I raise my hand and I picked up a loaded magazine from someone's gun case and I said " Your email stated no live ammo in the training area. This shouldn't be here. This isn't safe."

That's when the other guy started talking about how this was real world training and if you were going to carry a gun you ought to know the status of your weapon. He was Special Forces (and that was verified) so everybody kind of bowed before him.

I'm going to State again that I believe that if you were doing dedicated dry training there should not be a single round in that room.

Again, I have no issue with someone showing up with a loaded weapon, as long as it is cleared and flagged properly before the "no ammo" scenarios begin. Designate a separate room for ammo storage if that's the concern, and then you can transition from the "street" environment to the "training" environment.

Regardless, the SF guy who talks of how you should 'know the status of your weapon' is both right, and very wrong. Yes, you should know the status of your weapon. But, in a "no ammo" training environment the only status of your weapon should be unloaded, and without ammo.

We had an AD during a training event fairly recently at my department. The SWAT trainer brought a loaded gun to the event, because he wasn't a participant. Then, when he drew his gun to demonstrate a dry fire, he forgot that he was loaded and put a hole into a wall (a wall behind which other participants were standing). Fortunately no one was hurt, but it was a bad situation. Should he have known better? Absolutely. But, it still happened. So, that's why it is pretty vital that any armed protection in these events is a non-participant (to include not being actively involved in teaching the training in a way where pulling a weapon could happen).

 

[George Dickel]

I wouldn't want to be any part of this bunch of morons. If they can't comply with a simple requirement of no ammo in the training area how do you think they will follow proper procedures in an actual situation. This former SF idiot that believes he is above the feckless turkeys in the barnyard would get a boot up his posterior if he did that same thing while on active duty. I spent enough years in the Army and know that a violation of safety protocols will get you in deep doo doo. I know and have known a number of SF guys and have learned they have an even lower tolerance for safety violations. I'd get away from this bunch before one of them shoots me with an unloaded gun.

 

[Slamfire]

How many Movie stars have been killed because someone loaded a prop gun with live ammunition?

http://propguys.com/gundanger/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/aspiring-rapper-kealo-shot-dead-5456802

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ner-killed-by-gun-that-was-loaded-with-blanks

 

[bearcreek]

Yes.

Every time they do the training the the email states:

***** NO LIVE AMMO **** is to be brought to this session. We will be training with unloaded guns and Snap Caps (dummy/inert rounds designed for training). If you have your own Snap Caps, feel free to bring them.

and every time 3/4 of the people who show up, show up with a loaded gun. They then unload in the training room and leave they ammunition in the training room?

Got it. I'd be questioning their competence as instructors at that point. What are their credentials?

 

[hdwhit]

Absolutely No Live Ammunition In The Training Area.

But where's the fun in that? You take away the potential to be shot yourself and the training loses a dimension of realism.

 

[old lady new shooter]

One member of the church one professional trainer



One of the senior pastors is generally there during the training. I really believe if the day I made a complaint in the middle of the class didn't get anything done nothing else I could do will either

Does your church have a board of directors? I would request time at the next meeting, and write up your concerns... and at the meeting first state your concerns and your suggested solution, then answer any questions / dialog with the directors, then submit a copy of your writeup to each member. (If you submit it before you speak they will all be looking at it instead of at you, you will have more impact if they are paying attention while you speak.)

 

[GBExpat]

I have only read the OP ...

... Every time they send out the email it says the same thing for the dry session "Absolutely no live ammunition in the training area" and every time out of 10 or 15 people that show up about 12 of them walk into that training room with a loaded gun. ...

IMO, if No Ammo in the Training Area is the rule, then it should be strictly enforced.

That said ... I would never attend such a meeting where I was expected to travel there sans ammo or unload in the parking lot prior to entering the building.

I would be absolutely fine with the first stage of the exercise being everyone divesting themselves of all ammunition on their person ... and that would provide a natural opportunity for the participants to end-up with obviously unloaded & open pistols.

One of my requirements would be that a Bucket'o'Sand be at all of these events and all participants racking a round at the end of festivities, just prior to leaving, must properly use that Bucket.

FWIW ...

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I spoke to the head trainer this morning. In addition to addressing the problem I out lined a solution (clearing barrel in the security office and all ammunition is stored there.).

He agreed there was a problem and said that he would address it. We shall see

 

[Trunk Monkey]

That said ... I would never attend such a meeting where I was expected to travel there sans ammo or unload in the parking lot prior to entering the building.

If I can't walk across the parking lot without my gun I am entirely too dependent on it.

 

[old lady new shooter]

If I can't walk across the parking lot without my gun I am entirely too dependent on it.

Yeah, you could live in L.A. and have to walk EVERYWHERE without your gun...
<six more weeks, six more weeks...>

 

[GBExpat]

If I can't walk across the parking lot without my gun I am entirely too dependent on it.

Non sequitur aside ...

So, these sessions are reliably secret and there is no way that anyone other than the 10-15 unloaded-guns-participants can possibly know of the meeting being held?