Accuracy and MOA Question

[GoWolfpack]

But most bubbas don't know anything about this, so they just crank on their sights a little in the way they need to go and end up taking all afternoon sighting in the rifle,

But that way you get to shoot more.

 

[Usagi]

A quick reference for newer shooters coming in here:
(numbers are approximate)

1 MOA =
25 yds - 0.25"
50 yds - 0.50"

100 yards - 1"
200 yds - 2"
500 yds - 5"


2 MOA =
25 yds - 0.50"
50 yds - 1.0"

100 yds - 2"
200 yds - 4"
500 yds - 10"

3 MOA =
25 yds - 0.75"
50 yds - 1.5"
100 yds - 3"

200 yds - 6"
500 yds - 15"

Quote:

Quote:
But most bubbas don't know anything about this, so they just crank on their sights a little in the way they need to go and end up taking all afternoon sighting in the rifle, instead of actually measuring in inches, converting to MOA, converting to clicks, and making a single sight correction that should get them on target.

I don't think this is answered the question that was asked. Sound like a way to start advertising the Appleseeds. I guess it's that time of year.

I noticed the same.

 

[WalkAbout]

Which Savage MkII are you using bdubz0r?

Its the basic stainless model, the FSV I think?

You get people saying you can have "too much power" on a scope... well, my less than 3" group at 557 yards begs to disagree.

I originally set this rifle up as a tack driving squirrel gun and stuck with a 4.5power scope. However, the way the Marlin has been shooting with bulk ammo, I'm thinking that will be the squirrel gun and the Savage will be turned into a target bench gun with at least a 3x9 scope on it.

But most bubbas don't know anything about this, so they just crank on their sights a little in the way they need to go and end up taking all afternoon sighting in the rifle, instead of actually measuring in inches, converting to MOA, converting to clicks, and making a single sight correction that should get them on target.

Wow... I suck. I'm going to have to work on that.

If you want to really learn this stuff, along with all kinds of other things about proper rifle marksmanship, you need to go to an Appleseed marksmanship clinic. www.appleseedinfo.org Bring your .22 and a brick of ammo, and you will learn more than you ever thought possible about rifle marksmanship. We throw a little Revolutionary War history in the mix too. It is a great time.

I truly want to do one, it's just a matter of time before I get a gun set up for it. Tech sites and extra magazines are expensive, not to mention a gun to put them on. I'm not sure the tube-fed model 60 would be quick enough to reload.

1 last comment from me. You should take 5to10 5 shot groups and calculate your average like they do in gun tests. It's not really accurate to shoot four 3" groups and a fifth 1/2" group then claim your gun is a 1/2 moa gun. Technically 1/2 falls within 3 so it's within range but a single group is not representative.

Sort of like this?
http://www.bmotsoft.com/ex_spread_calc.html#exspread_top

Thanks again for all the input. It's discussions like this that make THR the best firearms board on the web.

b

 

[henschman]

Quote:
But most bubbas don't know anything about this, so they just crank on their sights a little in the way they need to go and end up taking all afternoon sighting in the rifle,

But that way you get to shoot more.

ROFLMAO! So true. Hey, for some people, the fun of shooting is all about making loud noises, not necessarily hitting anything.

Oh, and you other guys are absolutely right about the advertising for Appleseed thing... guilty as charged... but I only do it because I think people like the OP could benefit greatly from it. I have never heard the concept of MOA and how it relates to group size, sight adjustments, and trajectory taught any more clearly or concisely than I have at Appleseed events. If you know of somebody who does a better job of introducing folks to these concepts, feel free to post it up and tell me to **** about Appleseed.

 

[benzy2]

With the .300 Win Mag I use a Nightforce 12-42 x 56mm scope and let me tell you something... I can see the holes from those 200 gr SMK's at 550 yards! I couldn't shoot as well at any longer yardage without the magnification. You get people saying you can have "too much power" on a scope... well, my less than 3" group at 557 yards begs to disagree.

42x is fine and all for a rested target rifle, but even then, get into a day with much mirage and I'd love to see you stick it out at 42x. The truth is, in some conditions the extra magnification doesn't help. It's also pretty obvious that a lot of people who plan to do more than just shoot paper can get into too much scope. No point in a 12-42x on a squirrel rifle. You also bought a very nice scope. 42x on a Tasco certainly looks a little different than 42x on a night force.

 

[Colt Smith]

MOA simple explanation for newbers.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/0/VA2PZBD5Tjg

 

[GLShooter]

MOA simple explanation for newbers.

A pretty decent explanation with good working models. I do all this stuff in my head and am wedded to the 1.047 number thanks to my first instructors insistence on the math of long range shooting.

He maintained you could hit anything within the platform parameters if you could put the math on the gun. He insisted on knowing the MOA down to the 0.000's He also did not allow the use of full, 1/2 or 1/2 value winds. We used logarithms in windage and elevation adjustments for all angles of fire and environmental influences.

The great thing is that you can get as detailed as you want and in the real world 1" being close enough really is close enough!!

I do prefer the elevation and windage in using the log set up and I know I shoot better because of it.

His other strong area was in using MILS for just about everything. It is a hoot to be shooting man on man at unknown distances and having to do the math yourself or if you have a hot spotter how fast you can hump up and hit stuff way out there!!

Greg

 

[ghostwriter]

@benzy2

42x is fine and all for a rested target rifle, but even then, get into a day with much mirage and I'd love to see you stick it out at 42x. The truth is, in some conditions the extra magnification doesn't help. It's also pretty obvious that a lot of people who plan to do more than just shoot paper can get into too much scope. No point in a 12-42x on a squirrel rifle. You also bought a very nice scope. 42x on a Tasco certainly looks a little different than 42x on a night force.

ROTFLMAO, squirrel gun huh? The biggest problem is that when I get a good decent hit I can't find any proof. That 300 win mag play hell-o with a squirrel, unless he's on steroids and weighs in a 200 lbs. LOL

 

[GLShooter]

42x is fine and all for a rested target rifle, but even then, get into a day with much mirage and I'd love to see you stick it out at 42x. The truth is, in some conditions the extra magnification doesn't help. It's also pretty obvious that a lot of people who plan to do more than just shoot paper can get into too much scope. No point in a 12-42x on a squirrel rifle. You also bought a very nice scope. 42x on a Tasco certainly looks a little different than 42x on a night force.

No doubt they look different!! LOL

When my prison got into SORT (SWAT) the LT in charge of the Team went out and bought some scopes for the sniper rifles , now precision, as the boys had competitions at their maneuvers every year vs other prisons. He bought a pair of straight 32X Tasco's and asked my opinion. I pointed out to him that his shooters could barely get off their rounds in the alloted time with a 4X12 scope cranked up and that there was no way in the world they would even find the target for the second second shot at 100 yards.

Needless to say the LT was not happy with me. Shall I point out that the 32 X scopes only made it to the range for one day? I always wondered what happened to them.

Greg

 

[benzy2]

ROTFLMAO, squirrel gun huh? The biggest problem is that when I get a good decent hit I can't find any proof. That 300 win mag play hell-o with a squirrel, unless he's on steroids and weighs in a 200 lbs. LOL

The point was, and is, there are a lot of situations where you can be out scoped. Just because you shoot that 300 Win Mag doesn't meant everyone one does. It also doesn't mean everyone is shooting from a fixed position where they have plenty of time to acquire a target at 42x. It may work well for you, but magnification certainly isn't the be all, end all that it takes to shoot small groups. I have a feeling you wouldn't see much difference in group size if you were using a 20x magnification rather than 42, and I think you would see better groups at 20x on a day with bad mirage.

 

[ghostwriter]

OH my, sorry for poking fun at your comment. You are correct. Sometimes even a tactical rifle could benefit from a 1-4x scope. it's hard to find a TRUE 1X scope and Nightforce has one of those too. I think they are especially useful on short range big caliber rifles used to hunt big game in Africa. Elephants and Rhinos are two that come to mind.

 

[benzy2]

Sorry, sometimes inflection doesn't come through the internet well. Thought the comment was a little different than it was meant.

 

[ghostwriter]

hey it's cool... no harm certainly no foul. Along the line of the O.P., I was under the impression that he might be going in the direction of Extreme Long Range Pursuit aka Guwerks (sp?) where making a shot at extreme long range would dictate the use of higher powered optics, a bullet drop chart, a dialed in load and very little mirage in the field hunting in higher altitudes for Elk, Moose, and Big Mulleys.
One thing in addition... just because a scope is a 12-42 x 56 doesn't mean it won't adjust downward to the lesser powers. I often use the 20-24x in the heat of the day for the mirage issue you stated above. Scoping a hillside or trying to determine the legality of a deer at extemem range is where the higher powers really shine. Everything has a purpose... high or low.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've always had an advantage, these last forty or so years, of living where I could have a bench rest close to the house (these last 28 years, front-porch bench rest) and almost unlimited shooting distances. This talk of "variable MOA" with varying distances has never been the case for my toys.

My 1970-vintage old pet '06 was always sub-MOA for five-shot groups. When it and I were much younger than nowadays, I could get ten-shot groups which were barely over one MOA. Ate lots of deer meat courtesy that old rifle. As far as reliability at distance, I had a one-shot kill with the hit within an inch of my desired point, at 350; one other out at 450, about the same, give or take an inch or so. The rest of my deer were within the usual sub-200-yard ranges.

So I finally got off my duff and set up targets at 500 yards. A 1997-vintage Simmons 44Mag 3x10 which I'd put on for no particular reason beyond curiosity. Hokay, same old sub-MOA at 500.

Customary in the world of shooting, the five-shot group is the accepted standard test for a rifle's capability from the bench. It's taken for granted that the shooter is competent.

Standard practice is center-to-center in determining group size.

And, as said earlier in the thread, MOA is the most easily understood term for a rifle's capability. Or should be, anyhow.

 

[benzy2]

This talk of "variable MOA" with varying distances has never been the case for my toys.

You either shoot at a range that is very consistent with the wind or you are really good at judging wind and adjusting for it, but it's reasonable to see groups open, relative to MOA, as distance grows.

If you are capable of judging wind within 2mph and your bullet drifts 1/4MOA at 100 yards and 1MOA at 500 in a 2mph wind, you added 3/4MOA of error just in the wind. As I said, if you don't see a change in MOA as distance increases, especially as you push the limits of a given round, holding a given MOA grouping becomes harder and harder.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

You either shoot at a range that is very consistent with the wind or you are really good at judging wind and adjusting for it, but it's reasonable to see groups open, relative to MOA, as distance grows.

Actually, I believe the argument was the reverse of that.

some long range shooters report poor groups at close ranges like 100 yds, but their groups shrink at long ranges after the projectiles "go to sleep".

Can't speak to it, have only been to 100yd ranges...

 

[Art Eatman]

benzy2, one nice thing about testing here at Terlingua is the hours per day of pretty-much calm air. In the morning the breeze is fairly constant out of the NW; in the afternoon, fairly constant from the SE.

Don't test in thunderstorms. Winds up to 70 mph can mess up groups, really bad.

 

[sarduy]

I can shoot sub moa all day, with any firearm, at any range I can hit a target. But once I start shooting anything at or above 2 shot groups the drop off is substantial!

I am not sure why the usual standard is a 3 shot group. Give me a 10 shot moa group. That will prove accuracy and skill.
__________________