Is guaranteed accuracy just a sales gimmick?

[MechAg94]

If says to me they put a little more into QA/QC at most which is meaningful.

If manufacture actually test fires the gun, at least they can say the rifle worked and wasn't badly inaccurate. It may not reach those groups off hand with you firing it, bit it will be decent.

 

[Shaq]

It may be a sales gimmick. I don't know about rifles but I did buy a Wilson CQB that claimed a 1" or less at 25 yds. guarantee "with this or that ammo." I did get 3/4" groups with my handloads.

 

[Capstick1]

They don't come with a test target or make some claim about their accuracy but every Remington model 700 I've purchased has been a tack driver. It doesn't matter whether it's a cheap hunter grade or a varmint/tactical grade, the 700 has been solid and dependable for me. There's a reason why these rifles have always been and continue to be used on military/police sniper teams.

 

[Zerodefect]

I can think of a dozen companies that want you to be happy with their rifle/barrel. We've even exchanged a barrel that shot poorly for free with one. With today's superior barrel manufacturing, using ironically similar machines and methods from the past, it's getting easy to make an accurate rifle.

Look at the Ruger precision rifle and the heavy barrel DPMS rifles. Those are as mass produced as can be and shoot fine. The sub MOA guarantee is only going to get more and more popular in any precision barrel.

Also since quality precision, over the counter ammo is getting better as well. I can just walk into the LGS at walk out with pretty decent ammo now.

 

[Paladin7]

Personally, I feel it is a sales gimmick only.

Modern rifles are made pretty damn well and shoot well too, which is surprising, given the shortcuts many manufacturers take in producing their rifles at a price point that people can afford.

As an example, check out a new Remington 700 SPS...great action and barrel, garbage stock. Remington, in this case, is producing an affordable rifle at a price point that is effective in the market. They do this by cutting corners by fitting a cheap plastic stock to the rifle. Will the rifle shoot well, absolutely, but that stock will not allow the rifle to shoot consistently well. Accuracy might be fine for field conditions, but if you want a very consistently accurate rifle, you will need to throw away that stock and buy a better one, then bed it, so nothing moves under recoil.

You usually get what you pay for...

 

[Hummer70]

About 35 years ago I was at a highpower match in Charlotte, NC and this guy had a Mod 70 Winchester in 30.06 and was griping that it was not shooting.

Before we went down to change targets from 200 to 300 yards there was one open target. I laid down and shot three rounds from his rifle and we got up and went down to change the targets. My 3 shots were under a inch with iron sights at 200 and I offered to buy his rifle.

He looked at the group and declined to sell it. After I went to the trouble to prove his rifle was a winner he had the gall to decline to sell his loser! ! ! ! ! I was really wanting it as it was a twin to the one I was shooting and only a few numbers difference.

You just can't make some folks happy. haha

 

[macgrumpy]

You guys need to understand what the "accuracy" guarantee means and I'll bet that any company that guarantees a specific accuracy can prove that their firearm will do it.

The problem is that none of you seem to understand that group size isn't a measure of accuracy, it's a measure of precision.

Accuracy is measured by the distance between a bullet's impact point to where the sights were aimed.

Precision is measured by the distance between the points of impact.

If a company guarantees .5 MOA accuracy they are telling you that all of the impacts will be within .5 MOA of where you aimed at the moment that the bullet left the muzzle. That could mean a group size of 1 MOA if any two impacts were no more than .5 MOA from the point of aim but in opposite directions away from the point of aim.

So when a company guarantees a specific accuracy they aren't talking about group sizes (error between each individual bullet impact- that's precision), they are talking about error between point of aim and individual bullet impacts. Accuracy is actually a measure of how well the firearm was assembled, the accuracy of the dimensions of each part and the fit between them. Accuracy is a result of how well the firearm was manufactured and assembled. Precision is more a measurement of how well the bullets and the shooter perform. A company can't possibly guarantee how well you or your ammo will perform but they can guarantee how well they've put the firearm together.

The truth is, an accuracy guarantee is bit misleading because most people don't know enough to distinguish between accuracy and precision. Most people think group size is a direct result of accuracy when in fact it's a direct result of precision. So when a company says accuracy they are being truthful, they are talking about how well they built the rifle, but they know that most people are actually thinking precision, they are taking advantage of the ignorance of the average shooter.

 

[d2wing]

Of course the claims are valid. At least under specified conditions. I appreciate knowing before I buy a rifle what it is capable of. It would only be a gimmick if it did not work. It works extremely well for every gun I have have purchased.

 

[hamp sandwich]

Guaranteeing a gun to shoot MOA or better if no gimmick.. Getting someone to believe that they can duplicate it without meeting all the necessary conditions is a gimmick.

 

[Nature Boy]

Claims and guarantees not withstanding, if the company shoots a test target then I look at it as a final QC/function check. It should keep them from shipping a defect and it means it's capable of good accuracy.

 

[Bart B.]

'Tis my opinion that a factory rifle's accuracy statement from its maker should state it's what they got shooting an identified load testing it some specific way. They should also say customers may or may not get that level of accuracy shooting some other load the way they test it. Same as mpg numbers for a given vehicle's use of fuel; we all don't have the same driving techniques and preferences.

How many readers are willing to have someone else shoot their stuff to check its accuracy?

All rifle shooters will not get the same accuracy level with the same rifle and ammo. Same for muzzle velocity. Letting several people shoot the same rifle and ammo that's a 1/3 MOA system will easily separate the best from the rest. That's why the NRA has four or five classification levels for competition.

Not a pleasant subject to discuss and some resent being confronted with reality that shatters their egos. Such is life; get on with it.

The British Empire came up with a way a century ago to find out who was the best marksman/shot. Rules stated that every competitor would be issued an SMLE and a bandolier or .303 ammo all from the same lot. The reasoning was, the best shot/marksman will shoot the best score. Took them decades to learn that was the wrong approach so they let people use their own rifles meeting certain specs (certain sights and a 3.5 pound trigger, etc.) but still shoot the same lot of ammo. Handloads were not allowed nor the use of commercial .308 Win ammo in rifles chambered for the 7.62 NATO cartridge. Recently, hand loads were allowed but were sometimes checked for unsafe pressure signs.

Do the best you can with what you've got, then go from there.

Most interesting is most claims are for only 3-shot groups. 'Twould cost about $20 to $30 per rifle to fix that and the vast majority could shoot 20-shot groups as accurate as 3-shot ones.

 

[Win73]

This was over 40 years ago but I saw a fellow put five shots from a .17 caliber centerfire rifle into one hole at 100 yards. It was a heavy barrel rifle with a barrel at least an inch thick. He had previously weighed the bullets and separated them to the tenth of a grain. He used brass once fired in his rifle and only neck resized. He loaded each cartridge just before he fired it. He weighed each powder charge to the tenth of a grain.

 

[Newtosavage]

Savage rifles don't come with an accuracy guarantee, but they easily could.

As for gimmick? I think of it as more of a goal. But it doesn't hurt that's for sure. Esp. if they can back it up.

 

[Bart B.]

Any rifle will shoot a few shots into a hole a little bigger in diameter than that of a bullet once in a great while. Hopefully it will happen in the life of the barrel. You gotta shoot a lot of few-shot groups. When that happens, you can be assured it's probably due to all the variables cancelling each other out. What are the odds of everything being perfect zero spread in each of their variables?

The smallest 5-shot 100-yard benchrest record is .0077" but its holder has no records for the aggregate of several groups fired at about .2000"; the largest single group in that average was about .3000". The largest group is about 40 times larger than that .0077" single group size.

 

[Nature Boy]

Bart, out of curiosity, what caliber was he shooting?

 

[murf]

macgrumpy,

precision is not a distance, it is a degree (how many zeros to the right of the decimal).

precision has everything to to with the process and nothing to do with the result. accuracy has nothing to do with the process and everything to do with the result.

precision begets accuracy.

accuracy is a whole bunch of holes real close together exactly where you want them. you get to choose how many holes and how close together.

a call to the manufacturer will determine their definition of accuracy.

luck,

murf

 

[MCMXI]

The smallest 5-shot 100-yard benchrest record is .0077"

With a group that small, it makes me wonder if someone could stack two shots on top of each other (by luck or skill) and then intentionally miss the target for the next three to claim a tiny group. Is there witness paper behind the target to show that the group is indeed five shots?

Any rifle will shoot a few shots into a hole a little bigger in diameter than that of a bullet once in a great while. Hopefully it will happen in the life of the barrel. You gotta shoot a lot of few-shot groups. When that happens, you can be assured it's probably due to all the variables cancelling each other out.

I agree 100% with this. I generally shoot five-shot groups for load development and can show endless sub .500 moa groups out to 400 yards, but I shoot very, very few sub .250 moa groups. I'm hoping that the 6.5 Creedmoor barrel that I recently screwed onto one of my AIs changes that.

 

[RevJim]

back when I lived in Texas, I also worked for NL Baroid. I always helped guys zero their rifles or handload ammo for them or teach them how to reload. My boss was bragging about his Weatherby Vanguard in .270 having a "3 shots in an inch and a half" guarantee. I asked him what he shot in it, he said Remington 130 corlokts. I told him if he would buy the equipment that I would teach him how to laod his own that would beat that for 5 shots! I also had him take it to a good gunsmith to lighten his trigger and touc up the bedding. He did, I did, and he was so thrilled because he could shoot 3 shot groups of .5 to .75" groups with 130 Sierras and h4831! 5 would go into 1.25 easily. I was his "big kahoona" after that, ha. I have found that most rifles are far more accurate than the humans who shoot them, ha.

 

[Bart B.]

.0077" record shot with a 30 caliber rifle:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...reaks-the-unbreakable-record-with-0077-group/

All benchrest ranges for registered matches have a moving backer to show individual shots making a tiny single hole in the group target.

 

[Kingcreek]

Re accuracy vs precision
I want a rifle capable of splitting hairs

 

[murf]

splitting hairs every time ... which is the whole point of this thread imo.

murf

 

[hq]

What's to prevent the manufacturer from just saying that it is the shooter and not the gun?

Honoring a claim, maybe? After I bought my Weatherby MkV with 1MOA guarantee, the first range session averaged at 1.2-1.3 and - out of curiosity - I reported the results to the gun shop. Next thing I knew all hell broke loose, importer called me, apologized profusely and offered to replace the rifle at my first convenience. I explained that there's a chance it might have been a shooter error, told them that I'd test again (they even shipped me two boxes of factory recommended Norma ammo for that) and that I was sure the accuracy would suffice for moose and cape buffalo I bought it to hunt.

If nothing else, it's good to know some manufacturers and their representatives take their accuracy guarantees seriously. For me, as a customer, that ment the difference between choosing them over other brands next time I'm about to buy a rifle. Some manufacturers may have different policies about this, of course.

 

[Bart B.]

macgrumpy,

If accuracy is measured by the distance between a bullet's impact point to where the sights were aimed. then a rifle shooting a 10-shot group measuring 1 inch diameter centered in the middle of the target at the aiming point is more accurate than another rifle shooting a 10-shot group measuring 1/4 inch that's two inches below the aiming point. Right?

Surely you know that shooting a tiny group at the aiming point gets hard if the point used as the reference to aim at gets obliterated by bullet holes. That's why benchrest groups are shot an inch or more away from the aiming point by intentionally setting the sight to do so. Otherwise, a 40X scope could not have less than 1/100th MOA repeatability positioning its reticule in the corner of the 1 inch aiming square on the target

Do you think the rifle barrel points to the same place on the target when every round fires the bullet out of the case as it does when the bullet exits the barrel regardless of who shoots that rifle and ammo and they always have their aim at the same place on the target?

 

[sirgilligan]

Why don't you just ask the companies about their guarantee?

That's what I did. Here is what Cooper Rifles told me.

If a customer is saying that they have an accuracy issue, the first thing we ask them is questions about ammunition. If they are shooting handloads or Match ammo, we give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ll make arrangements to get the rifle into the shop & go through it with a fine toothed comb. We’ll also test fire it more thoroughly to ensure that the test target groups weren’t a fluke or an exception. We’ll make any repairs that are needed & send the rifle home for the customer to try out. This usually resolves any accuracy issues. If the customer still believes that there is an accuracy issue, we’ll get the rifle back & due something drastic like rebarrel or what have you just to ensure that we have done all that is possible. At the end of the day we want to be able to say that we did all that could possibly be done for the customer

Ask before your buy. It isn't hard to do with email and you have the response in writing.

 

[SCgman]

Accuracy guarantees........ marketing gimmicks?

A guarantee is probably more an indication that the manufacturer has tested the firearm, and it met their adopted standard in a very controlled environment.

One thing's for sure, if your optics, ammo, bench set up and shooting skills aren't up to MOA standards, an accuracy guarantee may drive you crazy.