Is guaranteed accuracy just a sales gimmick?

[MaterDei]

A lot of manufacturers guarantee accuracy. For example, Stag guarantees .5" at 100 yards on their Super Varminter AR. Spencer Rifle guarantees a 1/4 MOA 3 shot group at 100 yards!

I'm curious how these guarantees are put into practice. Let's say, for example, that I can only get .75" from the Stag. What's to prevent the manufacturer from just saying that it is the shooter and not the gun?

 

[ontarget]

I would guess that their guarantee would be under the exact same conditions that it was tested under. Same ammo, same temperature, same atmospheric pressure, same moon phase.....you know what I mean.

 

[MaterDei]

lol, ontarget, I do know what you mean. My point exactly!

 

[jmr40]

If you read the fine print the accuracy claim is with a specific hand or factory load.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Accuracy guarantees are for the most part feel good marketing ploys. A three shot group is a statistically insignificant set of data, with only three shots it will be difficult to account for variances in the ammo and the weapon. For example I performed a precision evaluation on a Colt M4A1 SOCOM II, which uses the new medium contour M4A1 barrel profile. If I had only used the first three shots it produced with the best load used, I could claim it is a 1/4 minute rifle. I have a stricter standard though, and with rifles that don't beat the hell out of me I try to shoot ten shot groups. Doing so provides more data, and will show more of the true expected variances.

In my case 69gr SMK hand loads were capable of 10 shot groups of just under 1" at 100 yards, .92" to be exact.

Now, you don't see many rifle makers guaranteeing 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups, because they know realistically very few barrels or ammunition combinations can achieve it.

If you have a barrel and a load that will consistently print 10 shot groups at or just under 1 MOA you have one hell of a set up.

 

[rcmodel]

I think those that claim that provide a test target proving that it did it, once.

If you can't do it too??

Tough cookies trying to get anything done about it.
You just can't shoot groups as well as the guy at the factory who does it for a living.

In the end though, I think it is a good indication that rifles are better then they used to be, that they can even throw that out there.

rc

 

[justice06rr]

Its a gimmick for the most part IMO. If the buyer can reproduce the same groups, then that is the only way to prove that the accuracy guarantee is valid.

 

[Tirod]

While I don't see the guns as incapable, the real issue is the shooter. Most can't do it, and for the most part, don't need to. An accuracy guarantee of .5MOA is mostly good for long distance and precision shooting, which is an artificial goal.

No practical application for the most part. Fluff marketing.

The one or two specific instances would be prairie dog eradication and tactical sniper. Thousands of guys do the first, only a few select handful are officially doing the second, and they spend days every week on the range shooting in whatever weather the calendar brings. They aren't the point of the hype, tho - they are handed the gun and don't make the purchasing decision to use a "Stag" varminter for official use.

It's marketing based on selling to buyers who are gullible enough to think that extreme precision in the gun makes them a better shooter - same as the tactical market. Nothing could be further from the truth but nobody wants to admit it - there are dollars and egos on the line.

Military grade accuracy for the average soldier has been 2MOA for over 50 years and it's notable that the armed forces aren't worried about it much. They didn't upgrade accuracy requirements, they added a 2MOA red dot to acquire the target faster. Not a .5MOA red dot. And they still don't shoot monthly to maintain skill. Too expensive and doesn't really reinforce the 2MOA requirement.

The guns can probably do it, most shooters can't and won't ever find out if they can.

 

[Sav .250]

They set the standard.........They own it!

That being said, you might nor be able to get the same results..........

 

[Steve S.]

On my best days, I can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with my Kimber 84 in .308 and 1/2" with my Wilson 6.8 (again, on my best days). Mathematically translated to (say) 500 yards, I should shoot 5" groups or less with either rifle - people, that is fine, fine shooting however, I am confident that I cannot do that. The guarantees are fun to think about and to have/ own a rifle that has that capability - I think the real world of the average shooter makes those guarantees academic (for the exceptional talent, then that kind of accuracy may get put to some use).

 

[justin22885]

everything is a sales gimmick or none of these people would be in business

 

[farmerboy78]

I don't think it's a gimmick! What it does is show the rifles capabilities with quality ammo ran through it... if the average guy can't shoot it as well, then that's their shortcoming and not the rifle... it will also show you whether or not your shooting skills need some work... that being said, not everyone is an expert marksman, and each person should know their limits!

 

[jmorris]

I have bought guns that that had them most come with a factory test target.

If it were just a gimmick the mini 14 would come with a sub moa guarantee.

 

[LeonCarr]

You don't just wake up one morning and shoot 1/4 MOA groups off the bench.

I asked a benchrest shooter friend of mine what the difference was between a 3/4 MOA rifle and a 1/2 MOA rifle and his answer was "About 2500 dollars".

Not only does the rifle have to be virtually mechanically perfect and with very tight tolerances to shoot like that, the SHOOTER has to have very tight tolerances to shoot like that. Shooting at least weekly, excellent benchrest shooting technique, and a tuned rifle with tuned handloads. Those are the things in the very fine print when a company guarantees accuracy.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Kingcreek]

Not a sales gimmick. It attests to a certain accuracy guarantee. If one company is making the claim, no competitor would want to ignore it if thier product is equivalent or better.
My recently purchased tikka came with a card that stated it was fired for accuracy before leaving the factory and specified the sako ammo used for the 3 shot group. No rifle clears production that fails to place 3 shots in 1" or less. I believe it was hand initialed by the tech.
Now, if I can't get nice groups I'm going to be looking at a lot of other factors before calling up tikkasakobaretta and complaining about thier product. That's not a marketing gimmick that's just good business.

 

[Art Eatman]

Back in the 1970s, Weatherby guaranteed sub-MOA three-shot groups with their magnums, and included a target with the NIB rifles.

The best NIB rifle for tight groups that I ever owned was a 1970s Ruger 77 heavy barrel, 220 Swift. Five-shot 3/8" groups at 100 yards with my handloads. My only tweak was to put in a Canjar single-set trigger.

 

[Ks5shooter]

I don't think it's a gimmick! What it does is show the rifles capabilities with quality ammo ran through it... if the average guy can't shoot it as well, then that's their shortcoming and not the rifle... it will also show you whether or not your shooting skills need some work... that being said, not everyone is an expert marksman, and each person should know their limits!



I agree with quote above^^^^^^^

 

[Corn-Picker]

I have two rifles with MOA guarantees, a TC Dimension and a Weatherby Vanguard S2. Both of them shoot better than my rifles that did not come with MOA guarantees, my CZ 527 and grandpap's model 70. That's anecdotal, but in my case the MOA guarantee does seem to denote a more accurate rifle.

MOA is a poor metric for measuring accuracy. We should speak in terms of standard deviation. Standard deviation has a very specific meaning and you calculate the answer to all sorts of useful questions using standard deviation. The problem is that you have to fire about 30 shots to have confidence in your calculated standard deviation.

 

[Corn-Picker]

Back in the 1970s, Weatherby guaranteed sub-MOA three-shot groups with their magnums, and included a target with the NIB rifles.

The best NIB rifle for tight groups that I ever owned was a 1970s Ruger 77 heavy barrel, 220 Swift. Five-shot 3/8" groups at 100 yards with my handloads. My only tweak was to put in a Canjar single-set trigger.

Rugers are a mystery to me. My dad has a 30-06 rolling block that's a 3/4" group rifle, and (I don't know if anyone will believe this) a sub-MOA mini-14. On the other side we have a 7mm mag that, off the bench with a scope, has a 50% chance of hitting clay pigeons at 100 yards. He has half a dozen Rugers and they seem to have more accuracy variability than any other manufacturer.

 

[Sniper66]

I think it reflects 2 things: The demands of the buying public and the technology that goes into rifles and ammo these days, especially higher end rifles. The growth of long range shooting enthusiasts encourages ammo manufacturers to develop suitable ammo. When I was a young man, 50 years ago, the average low income guy that I grew up with couldn't afford more than a very basic deer rifle. If he could hit a pie plate at 100 yards that was acceptable to many and the cost of lots of target practice and tuning prevented much fine tuning. Just think of the 30-30. It used to be thought of as a short range brush gun. These days with demands for greater accuracy and range, it is touted as a 200 yard rifle. As a dedicated prairie dog shooter, I insist on being able to consistently hit a dime at 100 yards and I have several rifles that can do just that. I digress a bit here, but I think the demands of the shooting public motivates manufacturers to produce out-of-the-box accuracy and guarantees to go with them. That said, some cannot live up to the claim without a fair amount of patience.

 

[MCMXI]

Three of my best rifles (Accuracy International) didn't come with an accuracy guarantee as far as I can remember and they are incredible shooters.

As for other rifles, I shot these five groups off a heavy bag last month on a cold day in New York. This particular rifle comes with a sub moa accuracy standard. These five groups were shot from a brand new rifle that had seen a proof load followed by five rounds to test function. The rifle was cleaned and then I used factory ammunition (Federal) to qualify the rifle. These results are typical of this platform and this rifle easily passed the established accuracy protocol. Bottom line: some manufactures take an accuracy guarantee or standard very seriously and regularly test rifles to ensure that the product is meeting that standard. I most likely messed up the last group on this test target but I would be very happy to own this rifle since I know that I could work up a consistent 1/2 moa load for it.

 

[lysanderxiii]

A lot of manufacturers guarantee accuracy. For example, Stag guarantees .5" at 100 yards on their Super Varminter AR. Spencer Rifle guarantees a 1/4 MOA 3 shot group at 100 yards!

I'm curious how these guarantees are put into practice. Let's say, for example, that I can only get .75" from the Stag. What's to prevent the manufacturer from just saying that it is the shooter and not the gun?

What is a guarantee? It is the assurance from the manufacturer that a certain set of criteria are met. If they say the gun will shoot at least .5" (three round) groups at 100 yards, and you don't find this the case, you can send it back under the guarantee.

They should test it, probably from a machine rest, and see what the gun is capable of. If it does meet the .5" group limit, they send in back to you with a statement that they tested it and it met the claim.

What prevents them from just denying the claim out-right without testing? Nothing, but then again what prevents any company that makes any guarantees or warranties from doing the same thing?

 

[Sunray]

It's marketing. So is putting a factory test target in the box and specifying with what ammo. Like justin22885 says, everything is a sales gimmick.
"...What's to prevent the manufacturer from..." Nothing. Except maybe customers being on forums like this one and telling everybody about it.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

It's not a gimmick. As has been stated, it shows the capability of the rifle - not the shooter.

I have a rifle with a >0.5 MOA guarantee. It came with two, 10 shot test targets, the large spread was 0.375 inches.

I have been able to duplicate the accuracy under the following conditions:

1. 100 yard tunnel (no wind)
2. Sandbag rest
3. Sandbags on top of the barrel

Now to how practical it is - can the shooter actually use the accuracy? What the performance does is rule out the equipment as being a problem. Anything you miss is purely your fault as a shooter, and not associated with the rifle.

From a mental standpoint - that takes one variable out of the shooting process.

I use my rifle out to 1,000 yards shooting steel targets, and have used it for precision tactical rifle competitions - and for one stage, they put clay pigeons at 400 yards as the targets. Since the event is timed and your score is a combination of accuracy + time, any help you can get in the form of a more accurate rifle is a bonus.

Lastly - an extremely accurate rifle can make you a better shooter. As an example, I took my neighbor shooting. He's not a shooter and has very little experience with rifles.

I was the spotter for him and setup the scope for elevation, and then called the windage adjustment directing him on how many lines to hold outside of the target using the horizontal MIL reticle markings.

He hit 4 out of 6 shots on an 18-inch steel target at 1,000 yards - that's not too bad for an inexperienced shooter. It was the inherent accuracy of the rifle that allowed that type of performance with a little coaching and help from me.

If you've never shot a precision rifle under controlled (range) conditions, you would never believe the difference the equipment can make in helping you shoot better.

 

[MCMXI]

It's marketing. So is putting a factory test target in the box and specifying with what ammo. Like justin22885 says, everything is a sales gimmick.

How can you make such a blanket statement and be taken seriously? There are a number of firearms companies making excellent products that stand behind those products.

It's not a gimmick. As has been stated, it shows the capability of the rifle - not the shooter.

Exactly!