mephisto
Member
Look at the end of the tape. I think the perp takes a little pepper of the pavement. And the "gunner" pooped her pants.
Actual ND caught on tape
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Keith
Member
My problem with cops and "accidental" shootings, etc, isn't with cops in general, but with the fact that there are no consequences for cops in these situations. My problem is with local political establishments that hold cops above the rules that the rest of us have to live by.
You can be sure that the cop in question is still firmly attached to the public teat for her living.
Most cops are pretty decent people, and I'm sure, MORE competent with their weapons than the average civilian. If you doubt that, go to your nearest range and observe the level of gun handling by the general public...
If a cop gets caught taking a bribe he's ripped apart by the local establishment. But, if he kicks down the wrong door and shoots a homeowner, there's no consequences at all - for the shooter, for the brass who okayed the warrant on some junkies "tip", for the judge - no consequences.
And in this case, what would happen to any of us if we drew and "accidently" fired our guns in a situation which didn't require it? Wouldn't we be standing before a judge? Would we still have our carry permits?
Why two standards?
You can be sure that the cop in question is still firmly attached to the public teat for her living.
Most cops are pretty decent people, and I'm sure, MORE competent with their weapons than the average civilian. If you doubt that, go to your nearest range and observe the level of gun handling by the general public...
If a cop gets caught taking a bribe he's ripped apart by the local establishment. But, if he kicks down the wrong door and shoots a homeowner, there's no consequences at all - for the shooter, for the brass who okayed the warrant on some junkies "tip", for the judge - no consequences.
And in this case, what would happen to any of us if we drew and "accidently" fired our guns in a situation which didn't require it? Wouldn't we be standing before a judge? Would we still have our carry permits?
Why two standards?
Jack19
Member
The decent people part I agree with wholeheartedly, having been one, the more competent with their weapons than the average citizen part....only if you're talking about specialized units; on the average, not a chance.
Hell, she's probably a Sergeant now.
Powderman
Member
Powderman
Member
Oh, I get it now. I guess that was supposed to be a flame, right?
I seldom toot my own horn. However, wrote what I did for a reason.
I take my job very seriously. And I mean VERY seriously.
I believe that I should be proficient with every tool that I carry. Moreover, I believe that I have to be way past proficient with my sidearm--or any other firearm that I carry on duty. Why?
Because if you do need to use your service weapon, when you pull the trigger, guess what? You can't call for an instant replay, folks. You can't stop that bullet, or prevent it from exiting the muzzle.
My point of view is this: If I have to ever aim and discharge a firearm at another human being with lethal intent, I had DAMN well better know what I am doing. And, I had better hit what I'm aiming at!!
I figure that my proficiency at hitting my target with pin point accuracy on the range will translate to minute of torso when the chips are down, when you introduce all the stress factors.
All that was written as a counter point--the vast majority of police officers I know are proficient with their service weapons. They practice to stay that way, at great expense to themselves.
However, "arinvolvo", since you chose to attack me, I'll offer you the same friendly wager I listed above. You just have to show up, if you feel the need to do so. By the way, please pardon me if I come across as arrogant; 30+ years of dropping hammers of various types of firearms have enabled me to usually hit where I'm aiming.
(By the way, can anyone tell me why when someone states that they can do something well, someone else is there to immediately bad-mouth them? Maybe I'm a bit naive. I just don't get it.)
Oh, and by the way, if you think I'm tooting my own horn, let me say that I don't hold a candle to some of the other folks that I have had the honor of shooting with. These gents (and ladies) are literal shooting machines. One gentleman who goes by the name of Darius Young comes to mind. Another is a guy named Steve Reiter, and yet another is Brian Zins. If those names don't sound familiar, look up the roster of current and past National Pistol Champions. These folks shoot rings around me, but are some of the most cordial people you will ever meet.
I seldom toot my own horn. However, wrote what I did for a reason.
I take my job very seriously. And I mean VERY seriously.
I believe that I should be proficient with every tool that I carry. Moreover, I believe that I have to be way past proficient with my sidearm--or any other firearm that I carry on duty. Why?
Because if you do need to use your service weapon, when you pull the trigger, guess what? You can't call for an instant replay, folks. You can't stop that bullet, or prevent it from exiting the muzzle.
My point of view is this: If I have to ever aim and discharge a firearm at another human being with lethal intent, I had DAMN well better know what I am doing. And, I had better hit what I'm aiming at!!
I figure that my proficiency at hitting my target with pin point accuracy on the range will translate to minute of torso when the chips are down, when you introduce all the stress factors.
All that was written as a counter point--the vast majority of police officers I know are proficient with their service weapons. They practice to stay that way, at great expense to themselves.
However, "arinvolvo", since you chose to attack me, I'll offer you the same friendly wager I listed above. You just have to show up, if you feel the need to do so. By the way, please pardon me if I come across as arrogant; 30+ years of dropping hammers of various types of firearms have enabled me to usually hit where I'm aiming.
(By the way, can anyone tell me why when someone states that they can do something well, someone else is there to immediately bad-mouth them? Maybe I'm a bit naive. I just don't get it.)
Oh, and by the way, if you think I'm tooting my own horn, let me say that I don't hold a candle to some of the other folks that I have had the honor of shooting with. These gents (and ladies) are literal shooting machines. One gentleman who goes by the name of Darius Young comes to mind. Another is a guy named Steve Reiter, and yet another is Brian Zins. If those names don't sound familiar, look up the roster of current and past National Pistol Champions. These folks shoot rings around me, but are some of the most cordial people you will ever meet.
Powderman
Member
winstonsmith,
Thank you for your vote of trust and confidence. It only takes contact with one person who feels the way you do to make the job worthwhile.
If you're ever up in Washington State, look me up. Dinner and range time are waiting, and the tab's on me.
Thank you for your vote of trust and confidence. It only takes contact with one person who feels the way you do to make the job worthwhile.
If you're ever up in Washington State, look me up. Dinner and range time are waiting, and the tab's on me.
RCL
Member
From what I remember, the story back when this happened was that the officer was decocking the Berreta. I also seem to remember she was fired soon after. The camera angle I origanally saw was from behind and above the female officer.
In no particular order:
Memos and retraining are usually on order for NDs in gun carrying occupations, not firing. More than one starts a different story, of course....
Lovely to see "of course not all of them" lumped in with the over-the-top cop bashing. It truelly is, as already pointed out, spin worthy of the far left.
Thanks, Winstonsmith. Hearing from folks like you are not why I do what I do, but it is certainly a perk.
I'm off to TFL to read about all the gunnie incompetents who should be disarmed for their NDs. Quite a lot, iirc. I wonder if anyone who fessed up there is bashing here? Hmmm.... Probably not.
Memos and retraining are usually on order for NDs in gun carrying occupations, not firing. More than one starts a different story, of course....
Lovely to see "of course not all of them" lumped in with the over-the-top cop bashing. It truelly is, as already pointed out, spin worthy of the far left.
Thanks, Winstonsmith. Hearing from folks like you are not why I do what I do, but it is certainly a perk.
I'm off to TFL to read about all the gunnie incompetents who should be disarmed for their NDs. Quite a lot, iirc. I wonder if anyone who fessed up there is bashing here? Hmmm.... Probably not.
12-34hom
Member
Mike Irwin, is that right??
How old is the tape that is being viewed for all our pleasure?
What motivates people to post such things other than to provoke bad images of police?
I wonder what the ratio is of civilian vs. peace officers with accidents involving firearms as a whole?
In the last seven years i've spent working as a peace officer, i have been around ONE officer i did not trust when around him on a firing range.
On the other hand, i've seen MANY of gunners at the public range i shoot that scare the hell right out of me.
You do the math and tell me how it adds up.
12-34hom.
How old is the tape that is being viewed for all our pleasure?
What motivates people to post such things other than to provoke bad images of police?
I wonder what the ratio is of civilian vs. peace officers with accidents involving firearms as a whole?
In the last seven years i've spent working as a peace officer, i have been around ONE officer i did not trust when around him on a firing range.
On the other hand, i've seen MANY of gunners at the public range i shoot that scare the hell right out of me.
You do the math and tell me how it adds up.
12-34hom.
After reading the circle jerk of who is worse and who is better I dont believe anyone is going to change sides because of this forum. Why dont you just look at this as an isolated incident and move on with it. I have many LEO friends and I wont hunt with 2 of them. I have other friends that arent LEO's and I wont stay in the same room with them if a gun is in the same house. All in all I look at the individual first. One of my LEO friends thinks he is 6'3" and weighs 280 lbs. he isnt 5'9" and 160 drippin wet, still he walks as though he is a power to be reconed with. It makes me laugh, but the rest orf the cops more than make up for this clown. I am 6'3" and 280 but I dont push it around. What is the gain.
Look inside yourself and ask who is being the fool.
Look inside yourself and ask who is being the fool.
El Rojo
Member
Now in this case, I might see the officer getting charged with something. However, in another link, Keith was making the broad generalization that a CCW holder would have their license revoked and be prosecuted for having a negligent discharge. Follow this link to see that the answer to whether a civilian would have their CCW revoked for a "accidental discharge" is a resounding no. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23023&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
I have heard of cops shooting the wrong people in the wrong search warrants. However, how many civilians have been prosecuted for shooting the wrong person in a wrong search warrant? Secondly, it isn't necessarily a "unnecessary shooting" if you are a law enforcement officer that is serving a search warrant on what you suspect is the correct house and you see a suspect in that house pointing a gun at you. What should the cop do? What should the law-abiding citizen who is just defending themself do? That is a pretty tough question, but I don't think the answer lies in examining who should be prosecuted and not prosecuted for the shooting. The answer lies in who authorized the search warrant for the middle of the night, at the wrong address, or when they knew there might be a shootout and there was time to secure the perimeter and negotiate. And in your example where there no consequences? I remember there being a situation like that here in central PRK a few years back. The cheif lost his job, the department had to settle for several millon dollars, and the mini-swat team at the small department was disbanded. Maybe no one was prosecuted, but who is there to prosecute? The officer that sees a shotgun barrel pointing at them? I hardly see that as being fair and just. No the situation needs to be re-evaluated. Sometimes life just deals us a raw hand. What can you do more than just hope it doesn't happen to you? Cops have to do their jobs and I have my job of defending my home. It all lies in are the chiefs and sheriffs smart enough to learn from mistakes and not be so gung ho.
As far as this situation goes, no excuses. She should be fired. Criminal charges? I don't see why not if you can charge a civilian with some reckless endangerment for such a stunt, why not her? We can make excuses about stress and the difficult situation. However, if that was the wrong suspect or the suspect was only being arrested for shoplifting, does that warrant losing your life when you are complying with the police? Anyone that thinks so are you willing to give up your life for the right for that officer to make a "mistake"? I am not.
I have heard of cops shooting the wrong people in the wrong search warrants. However, how many civilians have been prosecuted for shooting the wrong person in a wrong search warrant? Secondly, it isn't necessarily a "unnecessary shooting" if you are a law enforcement officer that is serving a search warrant on what you suspect is the correct house and you see a suspect in that house pointing a gun at you. What should the cop do? What should the law-abiding citizen who is just defending themself do? That is a pretty tough question, but I don't think the answer lies in examining who should be prosecuted and not prosecuted for the shooting. The answer lies in who authorized the search warrant for the middle of the night, at the wrong address, or when they knew there might be a shootout and there was time to secure the perimeter and negotiate. And in your example where there no consequences? I remember there being a situation like that here in central PRK a few years back. The cheif lost his job, the department had to settle for several millon dollars, and the mini-swat team at the small department was disbanded. Maybe no one was prosecuted, but who is there to prosecute? The officer that sees a shotgun barrel pointing at them? I hardly see that as being fair and just. No the situation needs to be re-evaluated. Sometimes life just deals us a raw hand. What can you do more than just hope it doesn't happen to you? Cops have to do their jobs and I have my job of defending my home. It all lies in are the chiefs and sheriffs smart enough to learn from mistakes and not be so gung ho.
As far as this situation goes, no excuses. She should be fired. Criminal charges? I don't see why not if you can charge a civilian with some reckless endangerment for such a stunt, why not her? We can make excuses about stress and the difficult situation. However, if that was the wrong suspect or the suspect was only being arrested for shoplifting, does that warrant losing your life when you are complying with the police? Anyone that thinks so are you willing to give up your life for the right for that officer to make a "mistake"? I am not.
1
12.7x99mm
Guest
Oh man.... 
:banghead:
Im looking at some of these cops they're hiring these days to be PC and its not cool. And what this lady did was defiantly not cool!
Of course she probably got a slap on the wrist and was back on the beat with a gun soon
How old is that vid?
:banghead: Im looking at some of these cops they're hiring these days to be PC and its not cool. And what this lady did was defiantly not cool!
Of course she probably got a slap on the wrist and was back on the beat with a gun soon
How old is that vid?
winstonsmith
Member
Critcism is called bashing when its made general, and over the top. People are saying things like "I've only been harassed by cops." Or "cops are the most incompetent firearm users."
Thats bashing.
If they said, "Maybe should have had a little more training." Or even "Wow, her skills are deplorable."
Thats another story.
Thats bashing.
If they said, "Maybe should have had a little more training." Or even "Wow, her skills are deplorable."
Thats another story.
Sportcat
Member
Spend a day with a cop... maybe some of these bashing comments will go away.
This past fall my brother and I attended a "Citizen's Police Academy." One night a week for 12 weeks. It gave a real insight to what these "incompetent, idiotic, non-gun handling" folks go through.
I had respect for officers beforehand, and even more after the course.
Put your life on the line every day for crappy pay. I'm sure we all make mistakes at our jobs every now and then. Why should LEOs be exempt?
This past fall my brother and I attended a "Citizen's Police Academy." One night a week for 12 weeks. It gave a real insight to what these "incompetent, idiotic, non-gun handling" folks go through.
I had respect for officers beforehand, and even more after the course.
Put your life on the line every day for crappy pay. I'm sure we all make mistakes at our jobs every now and then. Why should LEOs be exempt?
Keith
Member
>>>>Follow this link to see that the answer to whether a civilian would have their CCW revoked for a "accidental discharge" is a resounding no.<<<<
El Rojo, As was pointed out in that thread there are clearly two violations in just the one section you posted, so the individual would have their permit revoked.
(2) discharges a firearm from, on, or across a highway;
(3) discharges a firearm with reckless disregard for a risk of physical injury to a person under circumstances other than those described in AS 11.61.195 (a)(3)(a).
These are only the violations listed under the CCW laws. There would also be a number of other charges that would surely be tacked on for discharging a weapon in a public place.
Keith
El Rojo, As was pointed out in that thread there are clearly two violations in just the one section you posted, so the individual would have their permit revoked.
(2) discharges a firearm from, on, or across a highway;
(3) discharges a firearm with reckless disregard for a risk of physical injury to a person under circumstances other than those described in AS 11.61.195 (a)(3)(a).
These are only the violations listed under the CCW laws. There would also be a number of other charges that would surely be tacked on for discharging a weapon in a public place.
Keith
This tape was shot in Las Vegas and I believe the event occured within the last 2-7 years. We saw this in our CCW class and apparently, the female officer was not fired. She is most likely still on the force. After some internal reviews, the discharge was declared accidental, not negligent.
I saw the tape over a year ago, so my apologies for not remembering all of the details of the outcome of this ND.
I saw the tape over a year ago, so my apologies for not remembering all of the details of the outcome of this ND.
winwun
Member
Cops are people. People with a certain agenda, to be sure, but subject to the frailties that most of us suffer.
Winston, learn and remember that things are not always what they first appear to be. After your hero worship is tempered with 60 or 70 years of living, you will understand what I am saying.
The cop who takes a baton and a phone book to your head is the same cop who will go into icy water in January to save a child.
The cop who is on the pad is the same cop who will work overtime for no pay on a food drive to feed some hungry people.
Cops for the most part have a tiring, dirty and thankless job, but while the less I have to do with them the happier I am, I am glad that they are there.
The very nature of their jobs is to work with a certain sub-class who think, and rightly so, that the police are their natural enemy.
This does not cultivate the proper manners or attitude for your everyday tea party.
I strongly resent anyone telling anyone else what they can and can't say, subject to rules of decency, on this forum. Perhaps those PC cops would do well to read the piece of paper we all refer to frequently. It has a few things to say about freedom of speech and such.
Winston, learn and remember that things are not always what they first appear to be. After your hero worship is tempered with 60 or 70 years of living, you will understand what I am saying.
The cop who takes a baton and a phone book to your head is the same cop who will go into icy water in January to save a child.
The cop who is on the pad is the same cop who will work overtime for no pay on a food drive to feed some hungry people.
Cops for the most part have a tiring, dirty and thankless job, but while the less I have to do with them the happier I am, I am glad that they are there.
The very nature of their jobs is to work with a certain sub-class who think, and rightly so, that the police are their natural enemy.
This does not cultivate the proper manners or attitude for your everyday tea party.
I strongly resent anyone telling anyone else what they can and can't say, subject to rules of decency, on this forum. Perhaps those PC cops would do well to read the piece of paper we all refer to frequently. It has a few things to say about freedom of speech and such.
winstonsmith
Member
I think you misunderstand what I say winwun. I think its stupid to criticise all cops for what a few do. I never said that people should be STOPPED from saying stuff that insults cops. I just think people should learn not to take police protection for granted.
Not all police protection happens when you are under attack. If they pick up the person who was gonna attack you before it happens, then they may have saved your (or even the attackers) life.
Whose to say that if a certain person weren't arrested then I would be suffering the ministriations of a child rapist right now?
Not all police protection happens when you are under attack. If they pick up the person who was gonna attack you before it happens, then they may have saved your (or even the attackers) life.
Whose to say that if a certain person weren't arrested then I would be suffering the ministriations of a child rapist right now?
El Rojo
Member
Those intersted in the other thread can go there and check out what I said about an accidental discharge not being reckless disregard for a risk of bodily injury.
Aikibiker
Member
Welcome
Webhak, welcome to the highroad!
Thanks for the information on what happened to the officer involved in this AD.
As for the cop-bash/critisizing, why don't you guys start another thread? I think this could have happened to anyone and we should focus on how to prevent it happening to us.
Webhak, welcome to the highroad!
Thanks for the information on what happened to the officer involved in this AD.
As for the cop-bash/critisizing, why don't you guys start another thread? I think this could have happened to anyone and we should focus on how to prevent it happening to us.
Minute_Of_Torso
Member
Quoting Powderman:
"As was mentioned earlier, cops get LOTS of training in firearms and safety--at least in WA. That's why they call it range WEEK--a solid week of 10 hour days--or more--in total immersion in firearms. In the academy we went to, we had to demonstrate the four basic gun safety rules, and write and recite them verbatim during our practical exams. If you could not, you failed. And if you flunk firearms, you're out. Period."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wow! A whole week? Gee, that's 70 whole hours (assuming 7 days at 10 hours a day). Golly, they had to write and recite FOUR whole rules?! Shazam! How did they stand up to the pressure?
And before I get lectured on how difficult police academies are, let me state for the record that I've received many more hours than 70 hours of firearms training (very little in the military, the remainder being at the expense of my own time and money) and have myself provided many more hours than 70 hours of firearms training (once again at my own expense, never received a dime in compensation). No "cop bashing" intended in my post at all (unless it's for the local PD who served a "bust down my door" warrant a few months ago, oops! wrong address!), just thought it amusing that 70 hours qualified as "LOTS".
"As was mentioned earlier, cops get LOTS of training in firearms and safety--at least in WA. That's why they call it range WEEK--a solid week of 10 hour days--or more--in total immersion in firearms. In the academy we went to, we had to demonstrate the four basic gun safety rules, and write and recite them verbatim during our practical exams. If you could not, you failed. And if you flunk firearms, you're out. Period."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wow! A whole week? Gee, that's 70 whole hours (assuming 7 days at 10 hours a day). Golly, they had to write and recite FOUR whole rules?! Shazam! How did they stand up to the pressure?
And before I get lectured on how difficult police academies are, let me state for the record that I've received many more hours than 70 hours of firearms training (very little in the military, the remainder being at the expense of my own time and money) and have myself provided many more hours than 70 hours of firearms training (once again at my own expense, never received a dime in compensation). No "cop bashing" intended in my post at all (unless it's for the local PD who served a "bust down my door" warrant a few months ago, oops! wrong address!), just thought it amusing that 70 hours qualified as "LOTS".
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