Police shooting caught on tape

[artherd]

Why is it, in so many cases like this, we never hear what the father had to say? It's alway the mother or grandmother. (That was a rhetorical question!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that daddy is either:

A) Up and Done Left
B) In Jail
D) Both A & B.
C) Dead because he had cops yelling at him for 8+ seconds and didn't drop a gun either.

 

[Werewolf]

^^^^ Artherd you better break out your SHTF kit and be ready. The PC police are on their way to your home, loaded for bear and ready to take your insensitive posterior out of the sheeple gene pool.

 

[MountainPeak]

The guy had ample warning! PERIOD, nuff said!!

 

[Phyphor]

Good shoot.

Ok, so he's cruising around Texas, he's armed, and he gets stopped by the cops.... just WHAT is the reason for exiting your vehicle with your weapon in your hand, when confronted by police? And what could he possibly expect, a "sir, please comply with our desires, or we may have to get stern?"

From the video shown here, the score is: Darwin 1, Idiot 0.

 

[XLMiguel]

Good shoot, no sympathy based on posted account

If the subject doesn't have sense enough to come out of this car empty-handed when stopped by the local constabulary, he obviously just don't get it. It's not like he don't know the drill?

If he's a suicidal whack-job that is forcing the situation, then it is indeed 'suicide by cop', he isn't 'entitled' to any particular consideration. My sympathies to the officer and the family.

Sorta looks like Natural Selection, one way or the other

 

[Shootcraps]

Maybe he couldn't speak English and didn't understand their commands?

I've heard the response to that is, "Dude, you're just like a cue ball. The harder I hit you, the more English I'll get."

The way he stood there, makes it look like an officer-assisted suicide.

 

[Gordy Wesen]

the Officer screwed up a head shot.

 

[Zundfolge]

I have precisely one question:
Would if have been a "good shoot" for a civilian?

Well by "civilian" I know you really mean "Non LEO", but around here if I (as a non LEO) where in that same situation then yes I believe it would be called a "good shoot".

He had a weapon in his hand, he was refusing to drop it when ordered by someone else with a gun (doesn't matter that they are a cop or not) so I would interpret those as Opportunity, Ability and Manifest intent ... assuming I had no place to run I'd have Preclusion (and if I didn't have Preclusion I wouldn't be yelling at him to drop his weapon, I'd be exercising my other options...also I'm not sure its required in Colorado ... much like Florida).

That said, us "civilians" wouldn't be in the situation as it was a traffic stop.

Maybe he couldn't speak English and didn't understand their commands?

Name for me one spanish speaking country where the police would welcome an armed man with open arms?

I don't care if he doesn't speak English, he knows what cops are and he knows when any cop anywhere in the world is yelling at you and pointing his gun at you, you put your gun down. If he doesn't know this ... well then the gene pool has just been strengthened.

 

[skidmark]

Quote:
This flies in the face of all reason. As far as I could tell, the weapon was never raised, and therefore there was no iminent threat posed.


So let me get this straight. Some obviously unbalanced fellow is holding a weapon and ignores every instruction you give him despite the fact that you are covering him with a weapon, he walks towards you, and you wait for him to put the muzzle to your temple before you react? Maybe that works for you, but i wouldnt put anyone else in such an absurd position.

This argument will not fly, hunt, dance, or otherwise survive. Just look at the distance involved and compute the number of steps it would take for him to reach the nearest cop's side to put the muzzle to [your] temple.

Based on the audio portion, there were at least two cops present. From what I could determine, at least one was using the cruiser with the dashcam as cover. Shooter has gun in right hand and movement is with right hand to inside suitcoat/sports jacket near pants waistband. Furtive? Yes. Threatening? I don't think so, given the givens here. If you watch the video, the gun hand is quartered AWAY from the cruiser's dashcam (and straight into the side of his own car) when this movement is made.

There is not enough information to say that the cops did or did not know he had threatened suicide. There seems to be an indication that he was covered by more than one cop, and that at least that cop was behind cover. I just do not see the threat as being iminent.

And, yes, cops do have to answer to a higher level of resp[onsibility, because they are allowed to draw and aim before the actual iminent threat. I would never want to take that away fronm the cops, because it is all that will save their lives if the threat becomes iminent - that split-second advantage of not having to draw & aim and then fire. But as they are given the advantage, they must be held accountable for when they use it.

"I feared for my life" is not a free pass. If I was a cop I guess I'd fear for my life every second. But that does not say I can shoot without iminent threat.

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[JohnKSa]

He had a lot of choices. He made every one of them incorrectly.

The last two (below) should have gotten him killed by all rights--he's lucky in my book.

He chose to get out of the car with a pistol in his hand.

He chose to hold on to it when ordered to drop it.

And the argument that he was irrational doesn't make his case any better--an irrational man with a gun in his hand is FAR more dangerous than one who is rational.

Remember, we're not talking about a guy going about his business who just happened to be armed. It's not like the police stopped him for speeding and by chance he was armed at the time and they shot him for it.

He was stopped by the police in the aftermath of some sort of disturbance in which he had been acting irrationally and the police were called. He chose to arm himself before exiting his vehicle and chose not to disarm when told to disarm. Getting out of your car with a gun in hand is VERY different from simply having a gun ON you during a traffic stop.

 

[Taurus 66]

I cannot get the video. Does anybody have another link?

 

[M-Rex]

What the hell is this?

"They didn't give him a chance to do nuthin."

Did the mother or did the mother not just get done watching the video of her gangbanger son NOT complying with lawful orders from a peace officer?

"Why didn't they get somebody to go over there and talk to him?"

Say what? A gangbanger with a gun, and there's supposed to be genteel dialog?

I am starting to believe that there is some merit to having people apply for a license to procreate.

 

[No_Brakes23]

i'm curious, is it normal for car camera tapes to be made public?

I certainly hope so.

the Officer screwed up a head shot

I agree, but how do you screw up a headshot under 50 yards with an AR? Well actually the jaw would still be in the V-ring, so I guess it isn't that bad. Maybe with adrenalin and all that.

I guess they could have shown more restraint, and maybe hit him with the bean-bag gun, but the 8 seconds of non-compliance removes any sympathy I might have had for him.

I don't care what language you speak, if cops are yelling at you and you are holding a gun, I bet you know what they want.

Actually, just getting out of the car with the firearm in hand pretty much writes off your right to life, so I say the cops did okay, (As if my opinion mattered.)

 

[Hoploholic]

The suspect had his back to the officers. He would have had to bring the weapon to bear and then turn around to fire a shot. Force continuum would not indicate a shooting scenerio at the point the shot was made. Something was wrong with the guy and in all probability the officer would have had a reason to shot him eventually. When the shot was made, the necessary requirements were not there. Being an LEO is a dangerous job and requires great never and intelligence. If you make a bad call, you should have to answer for it. I think the officer made a bad call and shot before he had to.

I was amazed when the officer left the carbine on the hood of the patrol car. That should be an actionable offense right there. You never leave a weapon without securing it.

 

[spocahp anar]

Suicide by cop; as said in an earlier post he made reference to killing himself.

 

[one45auto]

Where was that tazer gun they love using on unarmed women?

 

[Teufelhunden]

Moral of my story is, if you're a law abiding armed citizen and the police tell you to drop the gun, then drop the gun!

+1.

Being Constitutionally correct or morally right will not reverse the fact that you're ventilated and dead. When I was working as a PI, I got made on a case and they called the cops. When I heard a knock on the window and stuck my head out from the back of the van, I found myself staring down the barrel of a Glock being held by an obviously nervous small-town policeman with Colonel's eagles on his collar. He demanded that I place my hands on the dash, which I did. he then demanded that I open the door (they were locked), which I also did slowly and smoothly. He instructed me to get out of the van, to which in reply I queried what he wanted me to do with my hands. I wasn't trying to be a smartass, I was trying NOT to make the guy with the gun more nervous than he already was. He ended up getting me halfway into handcuffs before he asked me if I was a PI. I replied in the affirmative, and he asked me for ID. I told him it could be found in my wallet, but kept my free hand on the van. Once it was determined that I was not a criminal, he uncuffed me and apologized profusely. I told him that he and I were both fine, so 'no harm, no foul'.

The point of this story is that a law-abiding citizen has nothing to lose by obeying legal commands to drop a weapon and then sorting out the mess later. We have a similar response when we break up an inmate fight in our jail or raid a house: everyone involved, no matter how apparent their innocence, gets momentarily restrained. Once the situation is under control and we can clear up who the bad guys are, those not involved or victimized are uncuffed. This is safer than having judgemental mistakes being made by cops coming into the situation and people who do not understand what it's like to run into a confusing adrenaline-inducing situation being shot or otherwise hurt.

My pride was hurt when i got pulled out of my van, but my a$$ was whole, so I considered it a win.

-Teuf

 

[Shootcraps]

I agree, but how do you screw up a headshot under 50 yards with an AR?

Perhaps he received his training at the Lon Horiuchi Sniper School.

 

[Preacherman]

Actually, shooting an AR, it's easy to confuse line-of-sight with line-of-bore - the latter is a few inches below the former, depending on the sights involved. It's possible the shooter was aiming for the cranium, and forgot that the bore line would be lower than this - he should have allowed for it.

 

[Tom Servo]

Maybe he couldn't speak English and didn't understand their commands?

Not an excuse. It doesn't matter where you are or whether or not you understand the language: when uniformed men point guns at you, empty your hands and get on the ground.

From what I've heard of Mexican law-enforcement, I'm sure he learned this lesson well back home.

 

[c_yeager]

The suspect had his back to the officers. He would have had to bring the weapon to bear and then turn around to fire a shot. Force continuum would not indicate a shooting scenerio at the point the shot was made.

We must have been watching a different film. Consider that you saw the pistol in the suspect's hand. The film was shot directly from the POV of the responding officers. How did you see that pistol if the suspect had his back to the camera?

 

[nyresq]

as posted by SKIDMARK- There is not enough information to say that the cops did or did not know he had threatened suicide. There seems to be an indication that he was covered by more than one cop, and that at least that cop was behind cover. I just do not see the threat as being iminent.

so the police need to wait to fire until fired upon??? how long do you think it would take someone to raise a gun thats already in their hand and squeeze off a shot, not aimed, just raise and squeeze. even with an aimed in rifle on them they WILL get the shot off before a cop can drop them. Action is always faster then Re-action.

you say the cops were behind cover and there was more then one covering him? SO WHAT??? Do you want to be the sacrificial officer who "takes one for the team" when the stupid punk manages to get a lucky shot off before he gets dropped?? yea, I didn't think so...

I have a broken watch in my desk... even broken its right twice a day.

If you can see the danger, then the danger can see you and all it takes is one round to send a priest to some poor officers door to tell his wife her husband is dead because they decide to wait untill the suspect "made his move" before they shot him.

the moral of the story is, a cop points a gun at you and tells you to drop the gun.... do it or get shot... simple.

look at the link below for another shooting where an GA officer by the name of Dinkheller pulls over a mutant who disobeys all orders and gets a rifle from his truck, the officer continues to shout at him for an actual 30 seconds after recognizing he has a gun, and the officer gets into a shootout and lost... God bless his family.

http://www.filecabi.net/v/file/officervsguy/wmv

This is why you don't shout at an armed suspect, you give a command, he disobeys, he gets shot. period :banghead:

I don't care if he is unstable, suicidal, or just stupid. I'm going home at the end of my shift. If I go home with less rounds then I came to work with, that's not something my family will worry about.

 

[GregGry]

Holy crap nyresq!!!! That video sent chills down my spine!. As much as I wouldn't want to shoot someone, the moment that guy pulled that gun out, I would have shot. When he went back to the truck, and reached behind the seat I would have probably shot as well.

 

[skidmark]

so the police need to wait to fire until fired upon??? how long do you think it would take someone to raise a gun thats already in their hand and squeeze off a shot, not aimed, just raise and squeeze. even with an aimed in rifle on them they WILL get the shot off before a cop can drop them. Action is always faster then Re-action.

you say the cops were behind cover and there was more then one covering him? SO WHAT??? Do you want to be the sacrificial officer who "takes one for the team" when the stupid punk manages to get a lucky shot off before he gets dropped?? yea, I didn't think so...

Dear NYRESQ:

I see the danger - I guess the best way to describe it is "if my gun is out I need to shoot." This may apply to the CCW "citizen" because we are legally constrained from pulling our weapons in case there is danger. Cops, on the other hand, are allowed and encouraged to pull first and decide later if there is a need to shoot. The possible/probable application of deadly force is itself a part of the force continuum used to encourage compliance with police instructions.

By the time I, as private CCW "citizen," decide to draw my weapon, I have already decided that it is going to go BOOM until the threat is stopped. Cops should not be making the same decision in every case - and IMNSHO this was a case that did not warrant immediate response.

The major differences between this shhoting incident and the Dinkheller incident - which you brought into the discussion - are that 1) Dinkheller was not behind cover, 2) the perp in the Dinkheller case raised the weapon & clearly intended to shoot, and 3) there is a lot of suggestion that Dinkheller's earlier reprimand influenced his decision-making that day. None of those are even siggested as being present in this situation.

We all agree that the most responsible, reasonable, rationale thing to do when confronted by a cop with a weapon aimed at you is to do exactly as the cop instructs you. Problem is this guy is described as being not responsible (prior criminal behavior), and not reasonable or rationale (suicidal thoughts, ignoring cops with weapons pointed at him, etc.)

Sure he is, therefore, an unknown and unpredictable danger. But he was not, at the moment the shot was fired, an iminent threat. With the cops already aiming at him from behind cover, I would have thought the hand movement might have been something to react to - except that it put the muzzle of the gun in his hand away from the cops & towards the car.

Let me end by stating that I do not like criminals. I do not think they should get anything but a first chance to do right instead of wrong. But I also do not like the idea that cops should be allowed/permitted/condoned to shoot because they "feared" they life was threatened. That ought to be reserved for situations when they can clearly articulate how and why there life was in fact threatened. That's the standard I'm going to be held to. If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for the cops. I still do not see the actual iminent threat from this BG. I do see it from an attitude that encourages/supports cops to shoot just because some jerk has not complied with verbal instruction for 8 seconds, or 10 seconds, or whatever length of time has passed.

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[Kjervin]

His mom asked why they didn't send someone over to talk to him. I guess because they didn't want to get shot, so they sent "A. R. Lead" (a pretty hash negotiator) over to politely ask him to drop the gun and have a seat by the car, and from the looks of things, he complied. I think the shootee is pretty lucky to still be alive and only facing a misdameanor! His mom should count her blessings and shut up. It's her child she should be angry with. Her son thought he was in control of the situation and could ignore the officers, but he couldn't ignore the persuasiveness of A.R. Lead!

KJ