Add-on Night Vision?

[Double Naught Spy]

Things like the seek thermal (plugging into cell phones and costing under $300 today) are a good sign of the technology getting cheaper and if your a young enough guy it will be common by the time you are the age of some of the old guys here.

Part of the reasons cell phones and calculators became so inexpensive was their utility in a nearly unlimited market and economies of scale in production. BTW, we had the Ti calculator above. Got it at Fedmart. It was a BIG deal. Cell phones have come down, again, virtually unlimited market of billions of consumers. Thermal optics has a market of hundreds of thousands in terms of hunting technology.

Seek thermal is a toy, plain and simple, at least for hunting applications. A sign that the technology is getting cheaper? Seek has been around for 5 or 6 years now. It has been inexpensive for years and uses far trailing edge technology. The sub 300 buck version is 206 resolution and requires use of your smart phone. In early 2015, the 206 resolution SEEK thermal cost $250. Where is the big price drop?


You can use it, as their ads show, for extremely short range stuff, like looking at the walls and windows in your home for heat loss...which is a valid use and might be fine for hunting if your prey is a few feet away.

Okay, calling it a toy might be a condescending characterization. It really is a thermal and you can use it for some things, no doubt, but its capabilities are so limited and the format for use is such a poor for for stealthy application (which you are engaged in with night hunting), that is just isn't very helpful.

Back in 2015, FLIR reduced the prices of their thermal components this significantly impacted the thermal market. In 4 months time, I saw the price drop so much that you could get a 640 resolution rifle scope nearly for the price of a 320 resolution rifle scope with very similar features just a few months prior. (ATN Thor 70mm 320 resolution was $6999 and after the price drop a 70mm 640 Resolution Armasight Zeus was $7200). Note, the lens size is a critical feature here because it is often the single most expensive singular component of thermal scopes, making up 1/3-1/2 of the cost of the scope. There has not been another similar price drop since that time, through prices have come down, but the technology has not improved very much (as noted above) in the basic consumer market. You can get new features, but not better resolution.

FLIR's failure in the civilian rifle scope market (after purchasing Armasight) has not helped with the bringing down of prices. Trijicon's purchase of IR Defense certainly helped mainline high end thermal to the consumer market as Trijicon's marketing far outstripped that of IR Defense.

You made a car price comparison of the calculator to an inexpensive cars of the time (Vega, Pinto, Gremlin), well the iRay 1280 costs more than many of the budget autos made today. It is cutting edge, so yeah, it will be pricey. Your average 320 resolution thermal rifle scope will run you about $3K and average foreign made 640 resolution thermal rifle scope will run you about $5K. Domestic 640 resolution thermal rifle scopes are more in the $6-7K range and go up to nearly $10K.

 

[jmorris]

Thermal optics has a market of hundreds of thousands in terms of hunting technology.

For hunting maybe but remember when IR thermometers were hundreds of dollars because very few people used them? Now you can get them for less than the cost of a burger and fries.



Even cheap thermals are more useful that a single point IR in most all applications. Want to see what breakers are seeing the most load?



If the engine is hitting all all cylinders?



Having a problem convincing the guy his radiator is the problem?



As folks like Fluke, Klein, Milwaukee and other make more and more, it expands the market for the technology, that equates to costs going down.

One just has to decide when to jump on the bus. Personally, I made a decision when usable resolution for hunting started over $20,000, that once they got to $2,000 I would hop on and they are there now. I don’t think they will get to $20 in my lifetime but I might see $200 before I kick the bucket.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

For hunting maybe but remember when IR thermometers were hundreds of dollars because very few people used them? Now you can get them for less than the cost of a burger and fries.

Well, hunting was the goal of the OP, not checking the temp of a pot in the kitchen, checking breakers, cylinders, etc.

As folks like Fluke, Klein, Milwaukee and other make more and more, it expands the market for the technology, that equates to costs going down.

Until folks like Fluke, Klein, Milwaukee, and others enter the hunting market, I don't see their position in the market doing much to bring prices down. They haven't so far. They aren't even at the forefront of thermal technology, but riding the trailing edge and applying it to different applications.

 

[jmorris]

No doubt about it, military applications are at the top of both resolution but price as well. That’s how we end up with the cheap trailing ends, the top has to continually see progression. The same stuff that went on with NVD’s generations and there are fewer industrial applications for that technology than thermal.

 

[illinoisburt]

I had already settled on getting IR rather than thermal when started the thread. My question was whether an IR imager was good or just replace my existing optical riflescopes altogether for a couple hunting trips. I went through the process of upgrading all my glass over the past couple of years and prefer to use the regular optic during daylight hours. Opted to get a sightmark for now even though I foresee a hassle swapping optics and see what comes up later.

 

[jmorris]

I had already settled on getting IR rather than thermal when started the thread. My question was whether an IR imager was good or just replace my existing optical riflescopes altogether for a couple hunting trips. I went through the process of upgrading all my glass over the past couple of years and prefer to use the regular optic during daylight hours. Opted to get a sightmark for now even though I foresee a hassle swapping optics and see what comes up later.

I haven’t seen any of the cheap digital night vision that’s really great and they seem worse during the day. The one I have does have some neat features and will allow you to see and shoot pigs in total darkness. That said, if I know I will be back before dark and can change optics or just grab another rifle, I will pick a smaller, lighter, clearer optic.

On the ones I use most I have a little pistol laser mounted on a rail. Anything you swap to, just line it up with the red dot and your ready to kill. It’s also nice to be able to use it as a pointer at night, if you are not hunting alone.



This one works too, just not as convenient. Have to mount it to the barrel, line it up with existing optic, swap optics, zero new optic to projected dot.


However, good QD mounts, used on the same rifle, are generally repeatable with greater accuracy than required for most hunting ranges require. Still nice for confirmation without having to shoot.

It was not mentioned before because from the OP, I didn’t think that was on the table.

 

[FL-NC]

The AN PVS 14 monocular is the most diverse piece of night vision gear. It can he worn on the head with a harness or helmet mount (I use a protech hockey helmet) or mounted on an AR behind something like an aimpoint or ACOG.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The AN PVS 14 monocular is the most diverse piece of night vision gear. It can he worn on the head with a harness or helmet mount (I use a protech hockey helmet) or mounted on an AR behind something like an aimpoint or ACOG.
View attachment 1052555

Yes, but there are definite limitations. It can be mounted on virtually any rifle with the correct mounting setup, however, the issue is the amount of recoil it receives for a given caliber. .223 AR15? No problem. .50 Beowulf AR15? Probably not going to last long.

 

[starnbar]

I haven’t seen any of the cheap digital night vision that’s really great and they seem worse during the day. The one I have does have some neat features and will allow you to see and shoot pigs in total darkness. That said, if I know I will be back before dark and can change optics or just grab another rifle, I will pick a smaller, lighter, clearer optic.

On the ones I use most I have a little pistol laser mounted on a rail. Anything you swap to, just line it up with the red dot and your ready to kill. It’s also nice to be able to use it as a pointer at night, if you are not hunting alone.

View attachment 1051123

This one works too, just not as convenient. Have to mount it to the barrel, line it up with existing optic, swap optics, zero new optic to projected dot.
View attachment 1051125

However, good QD mounts, used on the same rifle, are generally repeatable with greater accuracy than required for most hunting ranges require. Still nice for confirmation without having to shoot.

It was not mentioned before because from the OP, I didn’t think that was on the table.

.

 

[starnbar]

Just remember anything you are pointing at points right back to you.

 

[entropy]

I suppose the PVS-22 is out.......a bit more than $500 each.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Just remember anything you are pointing at points right back to you.

Nope.

 

[FL-NC]

Yes, but there are definite limitations. It can be mounted on virtually any rifle with the correct mounting setup, however, the issue is the amount of recoil it receives for a given caliber. .223 AR15? No problem. .50 Beowulf AR15? Probably not going to last long.

True- but in that case I would wear it on my helmet and use a laser on the gun.

 

[illinoisburt]

Followup in case anyone else is thinking about a night hunt. We ended up using inexpensive IE-01 IR digital imager which worked surprisingly well paired with regular riflescopes. Took shots at 40 yards (NV would not have mattered with pigs at feeder under the green light) and 250 yards on the second hunt (NV absolutely needed, no feeders and no external lights).

The good -- With quarter moon had no issues identifying animals (deer, pigs, coons) in short vegetation out to about 350 yards across an open field using the built in intensifier. Batteries lasted an entire night from dusk to 5am with IR on most of the time. I did not notice a measurable change in POI using the units when shooting at the range (its digital with day and night modes). The QD mount worked good for taking the unit on/off the scope without having to re-center or drastically change the image focus.

The so-so things that arent great but not deal killers -- The field of view is narrow and using the unit digital zoom made that worse so basically kept it at 1x and used magnification of the scope. It's manual focus so had to keep fiddling with the adjustments when going from short to longer ranges looking across fields. At the shot the sight picture blooms out for a couple seconds making it difficult to track impacts with animals running. Adding the unit to the scope makes it very long so I had to mount the optics fairly high and far forward then use buttstock adjustments to keep a good sight picture. The QD mount was finicky on initial set up and only locked down tight on a couple of scopes I had with similar bell diameters. I don't think it would clear a bolt action. Instruction manual was minimal and on-screen menus provided a bunch of options that really didn't do anything useful.

The not so good -- Keeping the screen on lowest brightness to reduce eye strain still had terrible headache by end of each night. Wasn't super thrilled that I'm using the rifle for glassing (hunter ed 101). Also learned need to have a good sized clear shooting lane for the first 5 or 6 feet in front of the gun. Moisture on leaves of a bush near one of the blinds reflected enough light from the illuminator to create whiteout of the image. Basically you cannot see into dense vegetation or wooded areas worth anything which is where thermals would stand out. The cameras use 18650 l-ion batteries which are expensive and not readily available in stores around me so I had to buy a bunch plus a charger.

Overall the add-on IR camera system was substantially better than trying to hunt with daytime optics and any type of external light source at night. I could easily see animals and felt comfortable taking shots at normal hunting distances in open areas.

 

[jmorris]

Just remember anything you are pointing at points right back to you.

 

[BigBL87]

If you want an inexpensive option for NV glassing, I have these two put together and it works pretty well.

https://a.co/d/en5NViY

https://a.co/d/2Jl6Oix



The illuminator I ordered came with red, green, and white interchangeable LEDs as well which is a bonus. The pic below is a tree at about 250 yards if I remember right, it's good out to almost 400ish based on my experience. You'd just a need a picatinny mount for the light that allows you to adjust the aim of the beam. I personal used one from Sniper Hog Lights.



I might be willing to sell mine at a discount if you were really interested, I haven't used it in awhile so I'd have to go test it to make sure it's all still working. Not that I don't expect it to be, just would want to be sure since I haven't had it out in awhile. Now that I don't have my NV scope I don't NEED it but it is kind of fun to have around.

 

[illinoisburt]

Took a couple pics through through the NV camera mounted on a scope set on 8x with adjustable parallax so gets good focus after some tweaks. Cows are about 75 yards. Looking out about 300 yards to a sparsely wooded hillside - some of that blur is me trying to get a picture while holding everything still. Brightness and clarity run out not too much further away.