Thermal? Night Vision? Whatcha using?

[Armored farmer]

I have a little experience with both thermal and night vision.
I really like the thermal$.

I'm thinking about doing some predator calling and maybe some pigs.

Tell is about your night time scopes.
What are you using?
What is it mounted on?
What are you doing with it?
Pros? Cons?
I have an AR that I can dedicate to night use.

 

[rabid wombat]

@Double Naught Spy your help, please

 

[jmorris]

I have dabbled with NVD’s a little and thermal beats all I have tried for my uses. The cheapest one I have used that works well is the Pulsar Core.

Most of mine have been used on AR’s. With a thermal, heat sources are very obvious, others just turn dark into, less dark.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Pros of Thermal? Warm bodies stand out. Pros of NV? Much much cheaper at present than thermal.

 

[12Bravo20]

When it comes to night vision you want Gen 3 or newer. I have used Gen 1 through Gen 3 night vision devices while in the Army and there is definitely a difference between the three. The NV scopes I was issued were Gen 1 and were hard to see much details. The AN/PVS5 NV goggles were a little better but things still appeared fuzzy. The AN/PVS7 Gen goggles were a lot better. You could see finger details and you could even read vehicle gauges and read maps with them. The newer night vision such as the AN/PVS14 and above are even better.

I wasn't really impressed with the thermal vision we used in tracked vehicles at that time. Any type of artificial fog/smoke would render them pretty much useless. Yes we would use the smoke generator on our vehicle to mess with others driving with thermals. The smoke generator just pumped diesel into the hot exhaust which was enough to blind the thermals being used on vehicles.

 

[horsemen61]

Ttrl

 

[illinoisburt]

I won't pretend to know everything. I have been on a few hog hunts this year using NV and learned at least some things good and bad. Like everything else we do, once you get started it seems gear starts to multiply so I find myself with multiple NV units now.

First it is very helpful to have a handheld NV monocular for scanning fields along with a weapon sight. I already had an older Russian tube nightowl 3x 1st gen monocular I bought new probably 20 years ago. Resolution is sort of usable with moonlight and the built in IR light. By itself it is not great and frankly not worth toting along to a blind. I bought a basic no name digital handheld nightvision camera for $50 on ebay to hopefully have a workable scanning tool. Honestly it was a huge upgrade in image clarity. Paired with $20 IR flashlight it works well enough to scan fields for movement or pick up animal eyes shining in the distance. I'm sure there are much better units available to do the job.

I did discover that a flash hider is important. The basic A2 is actually decent or upgrade to yanky hills venom to minimize blooming and protect vision in my other eye. The factory installed comps on my ARs basically blinded the NV and me for at least a couple seconds after each shot making it impossible to see impacts or where animals run. Swapping those out was a marked improvement!

I've looked through a rental Pulsar thermal while on a night hunt and it's definitely better for some things like picking out animals when scanning the woods though I am able to see greater details with IR using a strong illuminator. It also doesn't bloom out with gunshots so you may be able to get multiple shots downrange before animals have scattered. I like it but not nearly enough to spend $3k on it.

So right now I have settled on digital IR for my hunting rifles. I have a couple ARs with a regular rifle scope paired with IE-01 NV cameras. Image quality and brightness is good enough for my usage and I like being able to take the NV off/on without changing the sights. They are fairly compact with good battery life and so far have put up with bouncing around on dusty back roads and light rain without dying so that's a win in my book. Unit cost was about $200 each on Amazon. I checked recently and did not see an active listing so they might not be available anymore.

I bought a Wraith 2-16x for my wife's mini30 which seemed to work well however she doesn't like it at all. Its too bulky/ackwards on the factory ruger ring rail making the gun sort of unwieldy and she says the eye relief is too short. It made her nervous shooting that she will get scoped so it never got used beyond a sight-in trip. It bothered me having to swap sights off my rifles on range days then having to reinstall and zero before each hunting trip. I don't like the fact it's battery dependant so if a need arose it may or may not be immediately usable if left on the gun full time.

If you have flat top AR dedicated just for night hunting a wraith could be a good option for the cost, especially the newer compact ones. It just doesn't quite fit what I wanted so it's in the box going to be a Christmas gift this year. I would also add that if you are after hogs I would move away from 223 towards a 6.5 or 30 caliber. 7.62x39 has put them down much faster on body shots than 223.

I'm kind of back to the drawing board for my better half's hunting rig. She has confidence in her mini30 and doesn't want to change guns. So far I don't think there is such a thing as a long eye relief NV optic and if there was I need to figure out a better mounting system without breaking the bank.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I have a little experience with both thermal and night vision.
I really like the thermal$.

I'm thinking about doing some predator calling and maybe some pigs.

Tell is about your night time scopes.
What are you using?
What is it mounted on?
What are you doing with it?
Pros? Cons?
I have an AR that I can dedicate to night use.

What we use doesn't matter so much as what is relative to you.

Rifle scope only?
Are you hunting open lands or woods?
Distances you plan to be shooting?
Longest distance you will shoot?
Caliber of AR?
Type of hunting (stand, spot and stalk?)
Desert? Forest? Coast?
Budget?
How often do you plan to use it?

 

[Armored farmer]

What we use doesn't matter so much as what is relative to you.

Rifle scope only?
Are you hunting open lands or woods?
Distances you plan to be shooting?
Longest distance you will shoot?
Caliber of AR?
Type of hunting (stand, spot and stalk?)
Desert? Forest? Coast?
Budget?
How often do you plan to use it?

Garsh.....
Ok...
Probably scope and handheld. Scope first.
Mostly hunting wide open Prairie cropland.
Maybe out to 200yds
AR in 5.56.
Hunting both from a set position calling and spot and stalk...also possibly night defense of my sweet corn patch from the masked marauders.(it's about like Caddyshack around here when the sweet corn is ready).
Open farmland. Riverbottoms. CRP.
Budget? I would spend $1200 for a good thermal. $600 for a Gen 3 NV.
I'm probably going to get a NV handheld either way.

 

[Armored farmer]

I won't pretend to know everything. I have been on a few hog hunts this year using NV and learned at least some things good and bad. Like everything else we do, once you get started it seems gear starts to multiply so I find myself with multiple NV units now.

First it is very helpful to have a handheld NV monocular for scanning fields along with a weapon sight. I already had an older Russian tube nightowl 3x 1st gen monocular I bought new probably 20 years ago. Resolution is sort of usable with moonlight and the built in IR light. By itself it is not great and frankly not worth toting along to a blind. I bought a basic no name digital handheld nightvision camera for $50 on ebay to hopefully have a workable scanning tool. Honestly it was a huge upgrade in image clarity. Paired with $20 IR flashlight it works well enough to scan fields for movement or pick up animal eyes shining in the distance. I'm sure there are much better units available to do the job.

I did discover that a flash hider is important. The basic A2 is actually decent or upgrade to yanky hills venom to minimize blooming and protect vision in my other eye. The factory installed comps on my ARs basically blinded the NV and me for at least a couple seconds after each shot making it impossible to see impacts or where animals run. Swapping those out was a marked improvement!

I've looked through a rental Pulsar thermal while on a night hunt and it's definitely better for some things like picking out animals when scanning the woods though I am able to see greater details with IR using a strong illuminator. It also doesn't bloom out with gunshots so you may be able to get multiple shots downrange before animals have scattered. I like it but not nearly enough to spend $3k on it.

So right now I have settled on digital IR for my hunting rifles. I have a couple ARs with a regular rifle scope paired with IE-01 NV cameras. Image quality and brightness is good enough for my usage and I like being able to take the NV off/on without changing the sights. They are fairly compact with good battery life and so far have put up with bouncing around on dusty back roads and light rain without dying so that's a win in my book. Unit cost was about $200 each on Amazon. I checked recently and did not see an active listing so they might not be available anymore.

I bought a Wraith 2-16x for my wife's mini30 which seemed to work well however she doesn't like it at all. Its too bulky/ackwards on the factory ruger ring rail making the gun sort of unwieldy and she says the eye relief is too short. It made her nervous shooting that she will get scoped so it never got used beyond a sight-in trip. It bothered me having to swap sights off my rifles on range days then having to reinstall and zero before each hunting trip. I don't like the fact it's battery dependant so if a need arose it may or may not be immediately usable if left on the gun full time.

If you have flat top AR dedicated just for night hunting a wraith could be a good option for the cost, especially the newer compact ones. It just doesn't quite fit what I wanted so it's in the box going to be a Christmas gift this year. I would also add that if you are after hogs I would move away from 223 towards a 6.5 or 30 caliber. 7.62x39 has put them down much faster on body shots than 223.

I'm kind of back to the drawing board for my better half's hunting rig. She has confidence in her mini30 and doesn't want to change guns. So far I don't think there is such a thing as a long eye relief NV optic and if there was I need to figure out a better mounting system without breaking the bank.

I have a great little RAR in 7.62x39. But it don't want to dedicate it to night hunting only.
I do have an AR that can be dedicated to night use. In fact its a cool gray color.
I have had 2 for 2 success with my 5.56 AR on pigs. I balso like the quick follow up shots from an auto.

 

[1942farmall]

I have a 4x32 Wraith on a 7.62x39 AR.
I use it about twice a year when I fly down to Texas for hogs.
I do have an upgraded IR illuminator mounted towards the front of the rifle below the barrel about 1" back from the muzzle.
This helps with flash white-out.
I also run an auxiliary battery which will power everything all night.
I can't justify a thermal.
Mine works great but it's definitely harder that a thermal for follow up shots.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Budget? I would spend $1200 for a good thermal. $600 for a Gen 3 NV.

There isn't much in the way of thermal that is "good" for $1200 and I don't know where you are going to get a gen 3 NV optic for $600. You can get digital night vision for $600, but it needs an IR illuminator.

Chances are you will want a spotter in thermal. Thermal is infinitely better at spotting hot targets than night vision is because things can hide from NV with pelage colors or just by being in the shadows of a tree line. In other words, as a sight dealing with daylight colors, camo still works against the hunter. An IR illuniminator will help, but has its own problems with reflectivity. Imagine shining a bright light against a hedge row. You see the outside of the row, but not what is inside of it because what is inside is darker than the outside and so is virtually invisible with NV and an illuminator, the outside reflecting so much light from the illuminator.

NV can see through windows. So if you get a NV scope for scanning, despite it being inferior to spotting animals in the dark, you can use it to drive with and people find it easier to navigate with than thermal.

NV tends to be better for identifications than thermal, assuming the animal has come in close enough to be well seen.

Thermal is better for spotting animals. With NV and Thermal, everything is 2D but it is worse with thermal. In thermal, everything looks like silhouettes. Misidentifications are easy for the unskilled, calves, deer, rocks get called hogs. Coyotes get called deer and vice versa. If you have lower end thermal, you likely won't be able to tell the difference between a skunk, armadillo, and raccoon at 100 yards in the grass.

I only hunt with thermal and use NV for driving on some of my properties.

For your situation, I would suggest a Wraith Mini and get a good supplemental illuminator. Using the rest of the money to buy the best thermal spotter you can, ideally InfiRay USA, AGM, or maybe Pulsar. Your spotter probably won't help you much for identifying targets, but you will be able to spot them readily and identify them with your Wraith.

The reason I suggest the mini is that it is a bit lower magnification and has a better FOV than the full sized wraith, but will work fine at 200 and less.

 

[Armored farmer]

Thanks much for your in depth information.
I have been look at Wraith scopes. I'm curious about some that claim day/night capability.
My lgs is a Sightmark dealer and I have a Sightmark reflex on my AR pistol.
I like your suggestions.

 

[mcb]

Tennessee does not allow any night hunting except coon hunting (no centerfire firearms at night, rimfire and shotgun only) and thermal, and light intensifier based night vision system is also illegal. And its illegal both as weapon sight or simple as a scanning tool. I would love to night hunt coyotes and armadillos with thermal but no dice. If they legalized night hunting and nigh vision system I would have my credit card out so fast it would catch fire.

 

[illinoisburt]

Tennessee does not allow any night hunting except coon hunting (no centerfire firearms at night, rimfire and shotgun only) and thermal, and light intensifier based night vision system is also illegal. And its illegal both as weapon sight or simple as a scanning tool. I would love to night hunt coyotes and armadillos with thermal but no dice. If they legalized night hunting and nigh vision system I would have my credit card out so fast it would catch fire.

It's very recent here in Alabama. The state basically recognized the damage caused by ever expanding hog populations and reality that daytime hunting isn't working.

I completely agree with DoubleNaughtSpy's comments. Good thermal is tremendous but out of my budget right now, especially so thermal weapon sights. When I was shopping for IR last winter there was tons of cool offering at local dealers but the Gen3 was almost as expensive as low/mid grade thermal. I went with digital because of cost and to some degree convenience since they are perfectly usable in daylight. This was a big factor for me as the public ranges here are generally all closed at night and I wanted to shoot enough with the system to feel familiar with it before hunting. I think the Wraith with an upgraded illuminator would have been fine for my hunting. I ended up with the other units taking a chance on a closeout item figuring if it was junk I could return it. I got lucky that it works and I was able to buy 2 more units at over 50% clearance but that was an anomaly. If I was still looking for a gun sight under a grand the Sightmark store would once again be my first stop.

 

[The Glockodile]

Interested in this myself.

Curious as to what the $7k Trijicons have to offer...

 

[jmorris]

Tennessee does not allow any night hunting except coon hunting

Must not have the pig problem we do.

 

[mcb]

Must not have the pig problem we do.

Thankfully not in middle Tennessee but I believe they do in other parts of Tennessee. My big thing is I would like to thin the coyote population a bit.

 

[jmorris]

Thankfully not in middle Tennessee but I believe they do in other parts of Tennessee. My big thing is I would like to thin the coyote population a bit.

Can you trap?

 

[illinoisburt]

Thanks much for your in depth information. I have been look at Wraith scopes. I'm curious about some that claim day/night capability.
My lgs is a Sightmark dealer and I have a Sightmark reflex on my AR pistol.
I like your suggestions.

Fyi Academy has 20% off internet orders which applies to the Wraith 4-32 HD. With discount its $399 with free ship.

 

[illinoisburt]

Fyi Academy has 20% off internet orders which applies to the Wraith 4-32 HD. With discount its $399 with free ship.

updated sales availability: Optics Planet is showing a sale price of $369 with free ship, plus you can get extra 10% off if you sign up for their email list. Yes I am an enabler