Adjust Caliber for Threats in Heavy/Layered Clothing?

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My personal choice is 40S&W.

But, that is not because I think 9mm would not penetrate clothing.
 
FWIW: Most gellatin tests involving "heavy" clothing consist of approximately four layers of denim. That's a far cry from the heavy/layered clothing typical of those who spend their time outdoors in -20 weather. That's why some of the mouse gun toters just stick with FMJ in thier .380 autos. No petals to break, etc, no worries about premature expansion on a button, etc. Perhaps the thinking is flawed, but a pair of Carhart Extreme coveralls over the top of a heavy sweat shirt/sweater, over a heavy lined demin shirt, topped off with a base layer is not 4 layers of denim.
 
Why "adjust caliber", when it might be more prudent, to just 'adjust projectile weight'?

1. You own a finely functioning firearm, with which you have acquired that marriage of mind, eye, hand, and coordination. Why toss that on a firearm you might not always carry?

2. POI/POA for different grainage, same caliber projectiles might not differ too much, at 'recognized' ccw distances. Also, how much different is your 'grainage of choice', from 'manufacturer's design grainage specifications'?
The original specs for a Hi Power were for a 124 grain projectile, for example.

3. Yes, it is sad but true, that jhp's clog, which to me, means that the designer failed in its attempts. Ergo, I suggest an alternative, that might be ugly to some Americans, in this time of 'jhp or nothing'. Obtain a 9mm FMJ with a truncated cone, in a grainage that might provide a greater penetration, for your specifications. I know some mfgr's are making them in 147-grain weight, and also in 123-grain weight.

Lastly, good luck on your trip.
 
I choose caliber and bullet based on the worst case situation and use the same all the time.
 
Originally posted by Warp:
And if the bullet's hollow point cavity clogs with clothing, that leads to INCREASED penetration since the bullet doesn't open, or doesn't open as much.
Click to expand...

You are very mistaken; and there’s plenty of autopsy evidence to prove it. Contrary to what you believe, what actually happens is that IN ADDITION TO clogging the bullet’s nose cavity, fabric and loose fibers, also, entangle the bullet, reduce rotational torque, and impede forward momentum. (Looks like you’ve never read a relevant autopsy report, huh!) :rolleyes:

Originally posted by SFsc616171:
Why "adjust caliber", when it might be more prudent, to just 'adjust projectile weight'?

1. You own a finely functioning firearm, with which you have acquired that marriage of mind, eye, hand, and coordination. Why toss that on a firearm you might not always carry?

2. POI/POA for different grainage, same caliber projectiles might not differ too much, at 'recognized' ccw distances. Also, how much different is your 'grainage of choice', from 'manufacturer's design grainage specifications'? The original specs for a Hi Power were for a 124 grain projectile, for example.

3. Yes, it is sad but true, that jhp's clog, which to me, means that the designer failed in its attempts. Ergo, I suggest an alternative, that might be ugly to some Americans, in this time of 'jhp or nothing'. Obtain a 9mm FMJ with a truncated cone, in a grainage that might provide a greater penetration, for your specifications. I know some mfgr's are making them in 147-grain weight, and also in 123-grain weight.
Click to expand...

Right on the money! That’s the reply that I would have made, too.
 
Most of the major players design their rounds to meet the F.B.I. testing criteria. They almost always open up even if packed with denim. They tend to still open up and sometimes carry a plug of denim with them. But still work. With Winchester Rangers, Speer Gold Dots, Federal HST I wouldn't worry about it. The 4 layer denim test was chosen because it was tought to go through and still open up. NYPD gets plenty of bad weather and their Gold Dots in 9mm or .38's (135gr. +P) seem to work fine.
 
The FBI heavy clothing test uses two layers of cotton, a layer of fleece and a layer of denim. They specify the type of each fabric. I've conducted many ballistic tests and can't think of a single occurance of less penetration in heavy clothing when compared to bare gel. Those tests have included a broad range of JHP bullets from many manufacturers.
 
cold weather is when you need a pocket gun. Fighting your way thru two covering garments, perhaps with gloves on, makes for a mighty slow draw and hit time-frame, compared to simply pulling your hands out of your pockets and firing. like in 4-5x as slow. That 'extra" 2 seconds is time for each man to shoot or stab you 4-5x. Every 1/4 second that you just "give" them is a very bad idea.
 
NYPD and Portland PD use Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P 124gr, and each of those departments are in areas where heavy clothing is very common. I wouldn't worry about it. I choose 147gr Gold Dots because they're great penetrators with low flash and very little snap. As a private citizen in Oregon (often overcast = common low light and heavy people wearing heavy clothing), that's perfect for my needs.
 
Glock Doctor said:
You are very mistaken; and there’s plenty of autopsy evidence to prove it. Contrary to what you believe, what actually happens is that IN ADDITION TO clogging the bullet’s nose cavity, fabric and loose fibers, also, entangle the bullet, reduce rotational torque, and impede forward momentum. (Looks like you’ve never read a relevant autopsy report, huh!) :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Please link your sources showing that heavy clothing reduces both expansion and penetration.
 
Here in south Texas this topic is somewhat irrelevant. However, most folks do wear heavier clothing in the winter... even at 50-60 degrees F. Go figure!! If it's 20-30 degrees outside the would-be perps will probably wait until it's warmer, LOL!! That might mean waiting an entire week!!:) Still... it might be pertinent to swap from 9mm/124gr to 9mm/147gr in winter here.

EDIT: Regarding excellent hollow points. I have Federal HST...
 
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You know, one of the better performing 9x19 rounds in real life is a Federal "+P+" 115gr JHP. One of the successful users is a law enforcement agency in Illinois. It can get pretty cold in Illinois, and people wear a fair amount of clothing when out and about during winter.
 
More important than caliber (using 9, 40, 45) is choosing a gun that you can accurately shoot when your hands might be numb from the cold or wearing gloves, and in low light conditions since the days are short.

I don't care what winter coats/carharts/leather/sweatshirts the perp is wearing, a rib bone is likely to offer more resistance than any of that.
 
I have seen a lot of ammo test on YouTube reviews that show increased penetration when a hollow point clogs. Often this leads to more penetration than in bare gelatin and penetration over 18". Shooting the Bull and pocket guns and gear both have videos the show this effect.
 
Mike1234567 said:
Here in south Texas this topic is somewhat irrelevant. However, most folks do wear heavier clothing in the winter... even at 50-60 degrees F. Go figure!! If it's 20-30 degrees outside the would-be perps will probably wait until it's warmer, LOL!! That might mean waiting an entire week!!:) Still... it might be pertinent to swap from 9mm/124gr to 9mm/147gr in winter here.

EDIT: Regarding excellent hollow points. I have Federal HST...
Click to expand...

HST has a reputation for being recovered from OIS looking like it fell off a promotional poster. Boring, uniform, aggressive expansion. No need to change.
 
You are very mistaken; and there’s plenty of autopsy evidence to prove it. Contrary to what you believe, what actually happens is that IN ADDITION TO clogging the bullet’s nose cavity, fabric and loose fibers, also, entangle the bullet, reduce rotational torque, and impede forward momentum. (Looks like you’ve never read a relevant autopsy report, huh!)

Please link your sources showing that heavy clothing reduces both expansion and penetration.

Ditto.
 
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