Advanced interaction with Law Enforcement

[Gridley]

So, I had a quite negative encounter with law enforcement the other day - it wasn't a RKBA or defensive situation *at all*, so I'll skip the details, but a few things stood out when I thought about it:

1. The first officer on scene *completely* failed to recognize that I was a 'good guy' who could (and was) helping instead of a problem, despite multiple visual cues.
2. The officer acted abrasively and appeared to be quite 'on edge' despite there being no threat to him in the situation.
3. The officer was quite impressed by his status as a LEO, despite being in a situation where law enforcement was not the primary concern.

Now, in the situation I was in that was annoying and frustrating but didn't actually pose a danger to me (though I wouldn't be surprised if the cop wound up in a lawsuit if things went badly after he ordered me away).

I'm had 'interaction with law enforcement' in several classes, but thinking back none of that covered what to do if a LEO was that far off base in assessing the situation and me. I expect, following a defensive shooting, that I'm probably going to wind up in cuffs and quite possibly in custody until the cops run things down (they've got their jobs to do, after all). I'm certainly not looking forward to that but its just a footnote to the shooting itself.

However I got to thinking "what if that cop showed up after I'd had to use a firearm to defend myself?" My short answer is "there's a good chance he'd have shot me."

So, especially for board members who are themselves LEOs, any ideas on how to turn around a situation where you've been identified as a 'bad guy', particularly after a defensive shooting?

Any classes you can recommend that include scenario practice or training on 'non optimal' police responses and how to deal with them?

 

[Jeff White]

First off, you have no idea how the call was dispatched. You can't make any judgement about the officer's initial response until you know what they expected to find when they arrived.

1. The first officer on scene *completely* failed to recognize that I was a 'good guy' who could (and was) helping instead of a problem, despite multiple visual cues.

What visual cues? Not to be sarcastic but the good guys don't all wear white hats and the bad guys don't all wear black hats.

2. The officer acted abrasively and appeared to be quite 'on edge' despite there being no threat to him in the situation.

What was the nature of the complaint and again, how was the call dispatched?

3. The officer was quite impressed by his status as a LEO, despite being in a situation where law enforcement was not the primary concern.

Why was he there if LE wasn't the primary concern? Someone called the police, whoever that was thought that LE was necessary.

Now, in the situation I was in that was annoying and frustrating but didn't actually pose a danger to me (though I wouldn't be surprised if the cop wound up in a lawsuit if things went badly after he ordered me away).

Why would he be sued for getting you away from the situation? I have had to detain people for interfering in an investigation, this is particularly prevalent during domestic disputes and neighborhood trouble calls. I actually arrested people for obstruction if they wouldn't leave the scene when instructed.

So, especially for board members who are themselves LEOs, any ideas on how to turn around a situation where you've been identified as a 'bad guy', particularly after a defensive shooting?

You keep your mouth shut and follow the directions of the officer. The officer needs to take control of the situation when he arrives on the scene. The situation at a call is very often not what was described when it was dispatched. The officer has to figure out what's really happening. If you are initially identified as the bad guy you need to shut up and follow instructions. The truth will come out as the officer investigates. You will be given a chance to tell your side of the story after the officer is in control of the scene.

I can't comment further without knowing more about your incident.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'll skip the details, but a few things stood out when I thought about it:
...any ideas on how to turn around a situation where you've been identified as a 'bad guy', particularly after a defensive shooting?

The first line quoted prevents any reasonable response to your inquiry

 

[Gridley]

First off, you have no idea how the call was dispatched. You can't make any judgement about the officer's initial response until you know what they expected to find when they arrived.

...

I can't comment further without knowing more about your incident.

Fair enough. I have, obviously, no idea what the dispatch was - and having been dispatched for "uncontrolled bleeding" only to AOS and get asked for a bandaid I am quite sympathetic to the perils of the game of telephone.

So. You're a lone officer, full uniform but unmarked car. Daylight, clear weather, rural road with light traffic. You AOS at an apparent low-speed MVA. There is a midde-aged male supine on the shoulder. On one knee next to him is another middle-aged male - medical gloves, light colored windbreaker, dark blue cargo pants, boots. Next to him is a shoulder bag FAK including a stethoscope. You immediately ask the kneeling man if he was involved in the accident. He says no, he just stopped to render assistance. You order him to leave. You do NOT, note, ask him or anyone else any other questions before ordering him to leave, nor have you taken any medical gear from your car or even gloved up. Getting him to leave is, clearly, your first priority. Your tone is aggressive. His face clearly shows surprise. He calmly states that he would prefer to wait until other medical personnel arrive. You state that you are a cop, that you know what you're doing, and again order him to leave. You place your hand on your sidearm.

I left.

I will, again, note that this wasn't an incident related to firearms at all (I had my usual CC in an IWB holster, but between my shirt, my jacket, and the angle there's no way I was printing). I'm not looking for critique of this incident - I'm concerned about the consequences if this had been a defensive shooting. So I will once again ask: how do you de-escalate a situation in which law enforcement has mis-identified you, particularly in the context of a defensive shooting? I welcome class suggestions.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So I will once again ask: how do you de-escalate a situation in which law enforcement has mis-identified you, particularly in the context of a defensive shooting?

I'm failing to see how the officer has either "misidentified" you or escalated the situation upon which he has just arrived. His primary concern was to secure the scene until additional officers arrived

 

[Jeff White]

So. You're a lone officer, full uniform but unmarked car. Daylight, clear weather, rural road with light traffic. You AOS at an apparent low-speed MVA. There is a midde-aged male supine on the shoulder. On one knee next to him is another middle-aged male - medical gloves, light colored windbreaker, dark blue cargo pants, boots. Next to him is a shoulder bag FAK including a stethoscope. You immediately ask the kneeling man if he was involved in the accident. He says no, he just stopped to render assistance. You order him to leave. You do NOT, note, ask him or anyone else any other questions before ordering him to leave, nor have you taken any medical gear from your car or even gloved up. Getting him to leave is, clearly, your first priority. Your tone is aggressive. His face clearly shows surprise. He calmly states that he would prefer to wait until other medical personnel arrive. You state that you are a cop, that you know what you're doing, and again order him to leave. You place your hand on your sidearm.

I worked in a rural area and EMS was often a 15-20 minute response so I never ran someone who was rendering aid away from an accident scene. You did the right thing by leaving. You don’t want to get into an argument over something like that. While you might ultimately win the war, you are going to lose the battle at the side of the road.

So I will once again ask: how do you de-escalate a situation in which law enforcement has mis-identified you, particularly in the context of a defensive shooting? I welcome class suggestions.

The first rule is to not be visibly armed when the officers arrive. We’ve gone over that many times on the forum.

The second rule is to follow all instructions without hesitation and keep your mouth shut. You should take one of the classes put on by an attorney who specializes in self defense law for what to say to the responding officers.

It’s not the Wild West and no one is going to say; I saw the whole thing sheriff, it was self defense, the stranger drew first.”

You have to understand that you have just committed a serious crime. Self defense is how you defend yourself against the charges. Expect to be treated like the suspect in a serious crime. You will be disarmed and your gun will be taken as evidence. You may be transported from the scene to the station for an interview. During that time you are a suspect. You cease being a suspect after a decision on charges is made.

Don’t be visibly armed, follow all instructions to the letter and only tell the police what your attorney who specializes in self defense tells you and don’t give a detailed interview without your attorney present.

 

[Gridley]

I'm failing to see how the officer has either "misidentified" you or escalated the situation upon which he has just arrived. His primary concern was to secure the scene until additional officers arrived

(sigh) Is it now SOP to order people who show signs of being trained medical personnel away from people who show signs of having been injured in auto accidents? To the point of making it the first priority to order them to leave the scene? Back when I was an active medic I actually got a written letter of thanks once, but times have changed. If he'd said "stand back, let me have a look", I'd have thought nothing of it. If he'd asked about my training I'd have cheerfully answered. If he'd asked the guy if he was OK and been told yes (the guy wasn't), fine. If he'd opened with the standard "what happened", no problem. If an ambulance had been pulling up behind him (again, no), then sure, chase the unknown quantity away.

Third and last try: I'm looking for advice on how to de-escalate a situation with law enforcement. Since in my admittedly limited experience LEOs tend to be rather more stressed when they AOS at a shooting then at a two-vehicle MVA, and since this board is a place where we're supposed to talk about what to do in the aftermath of a defensive shooting, I'm asking for advice or training suggestion about dealing with a LEO who has misread a defensive shooting situation and how to deal with it.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm asking for advice or training suggestion about dealing with a LEO who has misread a defensive shooting situation and how to deal with it.

I just gave you the best advice I can. There is no “misreading a defensive shooting situation”. The responding officers are responding to a shooting, this is a high level felony such as aggravated battery at the least and a murder at the worst. If you are visible armed you can expect to have guns pointed at you and there is a real danger of being shot. Your case only becomes a “self defense shooting” after the investigators arrive or maybe after reports get to the states attorney. The patrol officers who make the initial response will not be the ones who determine the shooting was self defense. They are going to secure the area for the investigators and crime scene techs.

 

[Gridley]

The first rule is to not be visibly armed when the officers arrive. We’ve gone over that many times on the forum.

The second rule is to follow all instructions without hesitation and keep your mouth shut. You should take one of the classes put on by an attorney who specializes in self defense law for what to say to the responding officers.

It’s not the Wild West and no one is going to say; I saw the whole thing sheriff, it was self defense, the stranger drew first.”

You have to understand that you have just committed a serious crime. Self defense is how you defend yourself against the charges. Expect to be treated like the suspect in a serious crime. You will be disarmed and your gun will be taken as evidence. You may be transported from the scene to the station for an interview. During that time you are a suspect. You cease being a suspect after a decision on charges is made.

Don’t be visibly armed, follow all instructions to the letter and only tell the police what your attorney who specializes in self defense tells you and don’t give a detailed interview without your attorney present.

All good advice - for when the cops are reading the situation correctly and things go well. As I noted above, I figure its probable I'll wind up in cuffs even if it is clearly a "righteous" self defense situation (which very few are). Get it, got it, had the class.

Things don't always go well.

Let's try an example since people want to get concrete. You say "don't be visibly armed." Yup, that's what the training says. So, home invasion. Multiple hostiles. Let's assume you're in a "castle doctrine" state. You grab a firearm and tell them to drop their weapons. Surprisingly, they do. You are alone. How, exactly, do you prevent them from harming you without keeping your firearm out until the cops arrive? How, exactly, should you handle the *initial* encounter with the police?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Third and last try: I'm looking for advice on how to de-escalate a situation with law enforcement.

The only escalation is in your perception in response to how you believe you should have been treated. The way to deescalate that is to not take it personally

I'm asking for advice or training suggestion about dealing with a LEO who has misread a defensive shooting situation and how to deal with it.

The only advice you're going to get is the same as offered by Jeff. Follow the officer's instructions

 

[9mmepiphany]

How, exactly, do you prevent them from harming you without keeping your firearm out until the cops arrive? How, exactly, should you handle the *initial* encounter with the police?

You should be on the phone with dispatch and would have informed them that you are armed.

When the officers arrive, dispatch should tell you to put your gun away

 

[bikerdoc]

Im going to spell it out simply, do what you are told.

 

[RickD427]

I worked in a rural area and EMS was often a 15-20 minute response so I never ran someone who was rendering aid away from an accident scene. You did the right thing by leaving. You don’t want to get into an argument over something like that. While you might ultimately win the war, you are going to lose the battle at the side of the road.



The first rule is to not be visibly armed when the officers arrive. We’ve gone over that many times on the forum.

The second rule is to follow all instructions without hesitation and keep your mouth shut. You should take one of the classes put on by an attorney who specializes in self defense law for what to say to the responding officers.

It’s not the Wild West and no one is going to say; I saw the whole thing sheriff, it was self defense, the stranger drew first.”

You have to understand that you have just committed a serious crime. Self defense is how you defend yourself against the charges. Expect to be treated like the suspect in a serious crime. You will be disarmed and your gun will be taken as evidence. You may be transported from the scene to the station for an interview. During that time you are a suspect. You cease being a suspect after a decision on charges is made.

Don’t be visibly armed, follow all instructions to the letter and only tell the police what your attorney who specializes in self defense tells you and don’t give a detailed interview without your attorney present.

There are two important points that need to be made in response to the above, and I am making them as a retired LEO who has handled several defensive use-of-cases and supervised the handling of many more.

1) The statement "you have just committed a serious crime" is blatantly false. An action is not a "crime" until the elements of a criminal offense are shown to be present. Under our legal system, the presumption is to innocence, not to guilt, and there is nothing about a defensive shooting case that changes that.

2) Please don't blindly subscribe to the belief that you should say nothing until you've spoken to your attorney. In the worst case (and I've built the illustrating hypothetical in other posts on the subject) that can get you charged with manslaughter if an innocent person was struck by your gunfire and not located by responding officers. You have a duty to public safety that trumps the "right to remain silent" (please refer to New York v Quarles and its progeny). Make sure that you understand the content of a "Public Safety Statement." Give the required content to responding officers and then wait for a proper time, and after meeting with counsel, to provide the non-emergent information.

Following a defensive shooting, your weapon will be seized. It's evidence of a likely crime (if the suspect wasn't involved in a likely crime, then why did you fire on him/her?). Plan on the weapon being held until the end of the criminal proceedings (and in some jurisdictions until the end of the appellate period).

Plan on being requested to go to the station. It makes the crime scene management easier, and helps preserve the uninfluenced nature of your statements. But unless you're arrested, you can't be required to go to the station. In cases that I've handled, such folks wait in the station's lunch room, or conference room. If you elect to remain at the scene, plan on just about everything being behind yellow tape.

I've handled, or supervised, roughly one defensive use-of-force case a month over close to forty years and about 10% involved shootings. Exactly two of the "victims" involved were arrested at the scene (and neither of them were shootings). Do the math, and you'll see how small the numbers actually are.

 

[edwardware]

His primary concern was to secure the scene until additional officers arrived

If I'm the victim on the ground, I'd prefer that officer remain firmly out of control of the scene. Responding to an accident and telling the good samaritan rendering aid (to an obviously distressed victim) to butt out and leave is negligent.

When EMS shows, it's an upgrade in care, and they always ask whomever they find what is known about the victim. Sending the information away is further negligence.

Based on the narrative offered, it sounds like the officer's negligent disregard for the victim's wellbeing was a decided reduction in the care rendered. Reminds me of the officer who arrested a fireman who refused to move the engine protecting a crash response from oncoming highway traffic.

 

[Jeff White]

1) The statement "you have just committed a serious crime" is blatantly false. An action is not a "crime" until the elements of a criminal offense are shown to be present. Under our legal system, the presumption is to innocence, not to guilt, and there is nothing about a defensive shooting case that changes that.

The patrol officers don’t know that. They are responding to a shooting, stabbing etc.

Here in Illinois there is a separate section in the criminal code on justifiable use of force. That section is a defense if someone is charged and applied when charging decisions are made. That section is what makes your defensive act legal.

 

[Gridley]

The only advice you're going to get is the same as offered by Jeff. Follow the officer's instructions

I did. And if the patient dies, perhaps I'm not legally responsible since I was ordered away. And perhaps there was nothing else I could do in that situation. Perhaps the officer acted correctly based on what he knew at the time. Probably I shouldn't have brought up what got me thinking at all and should have just asked about advanced training on dealing with law enforcement, but I like to explain why I'm asking a question in hopes of giving context to get better answers.

When I started carrying regularly I accepted that I was planning for an unlikely situation - one in which I would have to use force or the threat or force to protect myself. I accepted that I might wind up in cuffs, or cooling my heels at a police station while an investigation happened. I accepted that it might not matter and I might die anyway. I accepted that I was going to spend a lot of time and money on classes and range time in preparation for something that might not happen at all.

I do NOT accept that I cannot train to improve my handling of situations in general, including situations involving law enforcement, and including situations where advanced/complicated training is required. Maybe whatever situation I actually encounter won't be one where that training makes a difference - but there are other possible situations where it will. I do NOT accept that a few hours of lecture on the theory of interacting with police (most of which was "here's what to expect") is the only training that exists anywhere and that it can be fully expressed as "follow the officer's instructions". Heck I think I've heard of classes that run through full VR-supported scenarios from "threat" to "OK, you're in cuffs, what do you say to the cops?", but I couldn't find anything online so I asked the question here. Maybe there's no training that its worth my time to take, but I'd like to know what's out there.

 

[RickD427]

The patrol officers don’t know that. They are responding to a shooting, stabbing etc.

Here in Illinois there is a separate section in the criminal code on justifiable use of force. That section is a defense if someone is charged and applied when charging decisions are made. That section is what makes your defensive act legal.

A patrol officer had better know the applicable legal presumptions. That's real basic stuff covered the first week in the academy.

Every state has their own laws defining justifiable force. But those laws don't create any presumption that the force is unlawful.

 

[Jeff White]

A patrol officer had better know the applicable legal presumptions. That's real basic stuff covered the first week in the academy.

What he knows when he rolls up on the scene is that there has been a shooting. Until the scene is secure and an investigation starts he can’t know anything more and assumes a crime has been committed. That’s pretty basic. The OP is asking about how to deal with responding officers. The responding officers have no idea what transpired until they secure the scene and an investigation starts. That is where my advice to expect to be initially treated like they have committed a serious crime comes from.

 

[Gridley]

One more attempt to get back on track. You want details? Let's imagine a scenario.

I've just shot a guy in a restaurant after he put a round into my wife. I just managed to get pressure on a major bleeder when a cop rushes in, sees the gun on my hip, points his at me, and orders "hands up!"

I am, to put it mildly, disinclined to comply with that precise instruction, reasonable as it might be under slightly different circumstances. There are a wide variety of possible responses I can give to the cop. There are, obviously, better and worse ways to respond. Which is which undoubtedly depends on the exact situation and the cop's state of mind. Is anyone here aware of any training that might help me respond in a way that is less likely to get me shot, and thus save two lives? Or is the only response "let your wife die, follow orders and save yourself"?

A stranger who *may* not be having a medical emergency? I walked away as ordered. My wife bleeding out? No way.

 

[Kleanbore]

I am, to put it mildly, disinclined to comply with that precise instruction, reasonable as it might be under slightly different circumstances

Come now!

There are, obviously, better and worse ways to respond.

Comply!

 

[Gridley]

Come now!

Comply!

And as I raise my hand and the blood begins to spurt anew from my wife, my hand jerks in reflex, and the cop, seeing my hand move towards my sidearm, shoots me anyway. We are joined in death as we were in life. The cop, upon learning what he did, can't live with it and commits suicide two weeks later. I was just following orders, sir. The people on the internet told me to.

Blind obedience is for the blind.

Is complying the right answer 99% of the time? Yes.

Will 99% of concealed carry holders never draw a gun in a life and death situation? Based on the statistics I'm guessing yes.

So if I train for the one, shouldn't I train for the other?

 

[bikerdoc]

I'm out.
I'm not playing what if.

 

[mjsdwash]

I can't really help, but I see your in WA, and will remind you what you probably already know. Most police arrive without sirens, and often without lights, even on calls they don't need to sneak up on. Best to be unarmed when they arrive.

 

[Gridley]

I'm out.
I'm not playing what if.

Which, in fact, is why I introduced the actual situation that made me think of this - I was hoping to avoid the knee-jerk "no LEO would ever give an order that would put someone's life at risk" response. (Instead I got the knee-jerk "always comply" response. Oh well.) Recognizing that this board is about RKBA, I asked for help in situations that might come up in that context.

I'm guessing that for most posters here, ANY armed self-defense situation is a what if. And I hope it stays that way.

 

[Jeff White]

I've just shot a guy in a restaurant after he put a round into my wife. I just managed to get pressure on a major bleeder when a cop rushes in, sees the gun on my hip, points his at me, and orders "hands up!"

I am, to put it mildly, disinclined to comply with that precise instruction, reasonable as it might be under slightly different circumstances.

You’ve just increased your chances of being shot by the responding officers exponentially.

Is anyone here aware of any training that might help me respond in a way that is less likely to get me shot, and thus save two lives?

No there is no training in how to respond to an officer that will teach you how to project: I’m the good guy here

You are making up near impossible scenarios to make some kind of point but I don’t know what it is. How does the responding officer know you’re the shooter? You could be a legally armed citizen or an off duty officer rendering aid to a victim of a gun shot wound.

Just because an officer ordered you away from an accident scene you’re making up all kinds of scenarios to prove he was wrong maybe?

If your gun is holstered on your belt and both hands are involved with trying to stop someone from bleeding out you aren’t much of a threat at that moment, are you?

We can make up scenarios all night long, but the answer is not going to change, follow the instructions of the responding officers, in a high stress situation like a shooting failure to follow instructions can be fatal. There are blue on blue shootings all the time, sometimes it’s an off duty officer who doesn’t drop his gun because he’s a fellow officer, happened in St Louis a couple years ago. Sometimes it’s a uniformed officer in a dark alley and the uniform isn’t recognized.

Follow the instructions of the responding officers….it’s just that simple.