Big Daddy K
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Nope
Nope.
Nope.
African Safari hunting video, ethical or not?
- Thread starter phantomak47
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Stover954rr
Member
To respond to the comments about "being a good stalker and getting close" I believe that has very little to do with it in this case. These animals are very wild, and are huge predators, and there for have little knowledge and fear of humans. There for it would be much easier for a person to get close to them, in my opinion unethically taking advantage of the situation.
phantomak47
Member
Here is the PH that makes these videos.............
http://www.marksullivanprofessionalhunter.com/
Personally I just think this type of video "cheapens" hunting ( I do enjoy fair chase hunting footage).
http://www.marksullivanprofessionalhunter.com/
Personally I just think this type of video "cheapens" hunting ( I do enjoy fair chase hunting footage).
Mark Sullivan is rather controversial in the African hunting community, but I have never heard this allegation. Any links or other info. to support it?
Hopefully, H&Hhunter will be around shortly with some expert commentary.
Scott
phantomak47
Member
I read this on a site, I will look for it, anyways this guy went to Africa and asked his PH about it and thats what he told him Sullivan does, along with most of PH hunters in Africa disliking this guy.
Anyways I am interested in what H&H has to say about this......
Anyways I am interested in what H&H has to say about this......
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FIRST of all you guys need a major course in animal recognition. That is NOT a CHEETAH!
It is a leopard. And the most common way of hunting leopard is to try and bait one into a tree that you've set a blind near enough to get a shot.
Cheetahs are listed as endangered but may be hunted in namibia under and exported under the CITES laws. Cheetahs are primarily ground dwellers and are not hunted from a blind under a tree. remember that simply because an animal is listed as endangered does NOT mean that it can't be at population levels that allow controlled sustainable hunting of that species. Heck the animal may or may not even be endangered from a population stand point. Endangered listing is a management tool.
Hippos will charge if you get in there way. Hippos kill more people than any other mammal on earth. There is very little provocation needed to get a hippo to charge.
Lions, notice that we don't see Mr. Sullivan playing the lets get a lion to charge game. All of the lion shots are on the ground on a non agitated lion. Lions are far to dangerous when wounded and move WAY to fast to play games with.
Buffalo charges. There is no way Mark Sullivan is not purposely provoking charges with buffalo to be able to get all of those spectacular close range shots on camera. There is also no way that he is not purposefully setting up wounded game for a charge. I doubt that he is intentionally wounding game though, I don't know for sure and I have heard from some people that he does and from people that have hunted with him that he definitely does not.
Because in normal buffalo hunting MOST of the time even with a good solid lung hit the buff doesn't die right away like a deer or an elk. If you actually watch his videos not every kill, by a large number, is a charge sequence. In fact only one or two per video for the most part and this out of a dozen or so hunt sequences.
But I know that if he gets the opportunity on a wounded animal that he will set it up for a charge for the cameras. He admits to it in his videos and in person. With his whole "we are going to let this buffalo chose how he is going to die" line.
All you have to do is find where the buff is laying up set up your cameras and either circle upwind or simply show yourself and walla you've got your self a charge. Wounded buff will almost always charge if given the opportunity.
The difference between Mark and the rest of the DG hunting scene is that if we get a buff down and wounded we track it and try to kill it before it ether smells or sees us therefore avoiding a charge at all costs. Of course this doesn't make for very exciting videos.
As far as the .22 thing I've heard that about Mark but I've heard lots of things about Mark. I don't know if it is true or not and neither do any of you guys despite what some knuckle head wrote on U-Tube!
I also hear every year, and have heard for the last 10 years that Mark has been killed in a charge. Each time I hear that he seems to be doing just fine, for a dead man.
As far as the hippo charges, absolutely he provokes them. But all you've got to do to provoke a hippo to charge is either agitate by pushing it in a place where it can't escape to deep water or get between it and where it wants to go. Hippos don't go around they go through whatever is in their way.
I actually find this to be a hell of a lot more dangerous and challenging way of hunting hippos than the old wait by the river and snipe one in the head when it comes up for air routine that is normally done.
"OMG they walk up to those animals and shoot them in the face." Ok this is just simple ignorance. You don't just "walk" up to a wild cape buffalo and "shoot it in the face."
You carefully stalk one or a herd of them sometimes all day for days on end until you get close enough for a shot. Usually in thick cover and limited visibility. If the buffalo senses you they will do one of two things, one turn and run or two they stand to face the threat with that belligerent nose high head back posture. The next thing that is coming is a charge, usually.
The one and only sure way of putting these hostilities to an end is a heavy caliber bullet right below the boss (that is the bony protrusion of horn on the forehead). This is the same shot and the only shot that will stop a charge 100% of the time.
So the U-tube video is collection of nothing but close range charge sequences from multiple videos. The music that was dubbed in was done so by a mouth breathing MORON and I find it to be very distasteful. I would guess that Mark did NOT give said MORON permission to post it.
Mark Sullivan is an artist with a heavy double rifle. He can really handle himself in a tight spot with a double. There is no doubt about that.
I think his videos and his style of hunting are very different and I don't agree with the glamor charge shots as they are not indicative of the real world.
It is a leopard. And the most common way of hunting leopard is to try and bait one into a tree that you've set a blind near enough to get a shot.
Cheetahs are listed as endangered but may be hunted in namibia under and exported under the CITES laws. Cheetahs are primarily ground dwellers and are not hunted from a blind under a tree. remember that simply because an animal is listed as endangered does NOT mean that it can't be at population levels that allow controlled sustainable hunting of that species. Heck the animal may or may not even be endangered from a population stand point. Endangered listing is a management tool.
Hippos will charge if you get in there way. Hippos kill more people than any other mammal on earth. There is very little provocation needed to get a hippo to charge.
Lions, notice that we don't see Mr. Sullivan playing the lets get a lion to charge game. All of the lion shots are on the ground on a non agitated lion. Lions are far to dangerous when wounded and move WAY to fast to play games with.
Buffalo charges. There is no way Mark Sullivan is not purposely provoking charges with buffalo to be able to get all of those spectacular close range shots on camera. There is also no way that he is not purposefully setting up wounded game for a charge. I doubt that he is intentionally wounding game though, I don't know for sure and I have heard from some people that he does and from people that have hunted with him that he definitely does not.
Because in normal buffalo hunting MOST of the time even with a good solid lung hit the buff doesn't die right away like a deer or an elk. If you actually watch his videos not every kill, by a large number, is a charge sequence. In fact only one or two per video for the most part and this out of a dozen or so hunt sequences.
But I know that if he gets the opportunity on a wounded animal that he will set it up for a charge for the cameras. He admits to it in his videos and in person. With his whole "we are going to let this buffalo chose how he is going to die" line.
All you have to do is find where the buff is laying up set up your cameras and either circle upwind or simply show yourself and walla you've got your self a charge. Wounded buff will almost always charge if given the opportunity.
The difference between Mark and the rest of the DG hunting scene is that if we get a buff down and wounded we track it and try to kill it before it ether smells or sees us therefore avoiding a charge at all costs. Of course this doesn't make for very exciting videos.
As far as the .22 thing I've heard that about Mark but I've heard lots of things about Mark. I don't know if it is true or not and neither do any of you guys despite what some knuckle head wrote on U-Tube!
I also hear every year, and have heard for the last 10 years that Mark has been killed in a charge. Each time I hear that he seems to be doing just fine, for a dead man.
As far as the hippo charges, absolutely he provokes them. But all you've got to do to provoke a hippo to charge is either agitate by pushing it in a place where it can't escape to deep water or get between it and where it wants to go. Hippos don't go around they go through whatever is in their way.
I actually find this to be a hell of a lot more dangerous and challenging way of hunting hippos than the old wait by the river and snipe one in the head when it comes up for air routine that is normally done.
"OMG they walk up to those animals and shoot them in the face." Ok this is just simple ignorance. You don't just "walk" up to a wild cape buffalo and "shoot it in the face."
You carefully stalk one or a herd of them sometimes all day for days on end until you get close enough for a shot. Usually in thick cover and limited visibility. If the buffalo senses you they will do one of two things, one turn and run or two they stand to face the threat with that belligerent nose high head back posture. The next thing that is coming is a charge, usually.
The one and only sure way of putting these hostilities to an end is a heavy caliber bullet right below the boss (that is the bony protrusion of horn on the forehead). This is the same shot and the only shot that will stop a charge 100% of the time.
So the U-tube video is collection of nothing but close range charge sequences from multiple videos. The music that was dubbed in was done so by a mouth breathing MORON and I find it to be very distasteful. I would guess that Mark did NOT give said MORON permission to post it.
Mark Sullivan is an artist with a heavy double rifle. He can really handle himself in a tight spot with a double. There is no doubt about that.
I think his videos and his style of hunting are very different and I don't agree with the glamor charge shots as they are not indicative of the real world.
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phantomak47
Member
Thanks for clearing that up H&H. If a Hippo was able to successfully charge and grab hold of someone, what would it do, bite someone in half? I remember reading somewhere as you stated that hippos kill more people than nile crocs are are more feared.
I couldnt find the first site about the .22 shooting, but I did find this one
http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=149128
I couldnt find the first site about the .22 shooting, but I did find this one
http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=149128
HankB
Member
Actually, the preferred shot on hippo is the brain shot. If you look at a hippo's face, you'll see a triangular flat area by his eyes - the brain case is right under that. Put a round through it, or shoot from another angle so the bullet passes under, and you've got your hippo. (You have to visualize the hippo in 3D . . . I shot one just behind his left ear, and the bullet exited under his right eye . . . the path was within 1/2" of the middle of his brain case.)
As for Mark Sullivan . . . I briefly met him at an SCI convention shortly after his first major video, "Africa's Black Death" came out. I asked him why, with a wounded buffalo, he didn't just have his client shoot it from, oh, 30 or 40 yards away . . . so his client could finish the buff he'd wounded. Even with my limited experience, that's what I'd have done.
His reply was that many buffalo had been shot on film, and many buffalo had charged hunters . . . but nobody had captured a charge on film, and he wanted to be the first to do it . . . and this was an opportunity to do so without putting anyone else in danger.
I asked, "From the angle, it looked like your cameraman was on foot - how safe was he if things went wrong?"
He gave me a dirty look and turned away.
Postings in this thread are the first I've heard where anyone's claimed he annoys the animals with a .22 first . . . I'd need more proof before I accepted that.
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A hippo will cut a man to pieces with one slash of those huge K-9 teeth they posses. They can cut a man in two with one good bite.
I have never meet an African PH who had anything good to say about Mark Sullivan. They all hate him or I should say what they know of him from his videos with a passion. Of course most have nothing good to say about Peter Capstick either.
As a group they tend to dislike any foreigners who are successful at the African PH profession. I take these remarks with a grain of salt as many PH's tend to be a bit jealous and a bit opinionated at times.
I've meet Mark Sullivan he is a salesmen and a promoter no doubt. But I didn't find him to be arrogant and he was quite friendly to me. I didn't give him the third on his videos that is not my place in life.
All of the guys I know who have hunted with him have really good things to say about the man.
I haven't formed an opinion of the man as a person. I find his videos to be well done from the standpoint of film quality sound quality picture quality ETC. But having been there and hunted a bit I KNOW that his dramatized charges are nothing more than devices to sell videos. And that he does quite well. If people didn't watch them he would quit making them. But he knows what sells.
I'd say that he is the P.H. Capstick of video. Peter wouldn't have sold many books if he were to write about the 10,000 safari hunts where NOTHING went wrong and nothing exciting happened.
Harley Quinn
Member
It is funny to read about the various dislikes of hunters and PH's.
I remember reading all the stories about the various problems, bad/good clients that Robert Ruark wrote about.
He is not thought of much, (forgotten) now they say, but he was great.
http://www.ncwriters.org/services/lhof/inductees/rruark.htm
HQ
I remember reading all the stories about the various problems, bad/good clients that Robert Ruark wrote about.
He is not thought of much, (forgotten) now they say, but he was great.
http://www.ncwriters.org/services/lhof/inductees/rruark.htm
HQ
I don't care what anyone says:
1.) Some amazing footage of shooting a charging buffalo... I am with the other posters, having the music their seems wanton. But as you watch it, remember Michael Moore... He took some fairly innocent footage, did some hocus pocus and got a slam peice from it... For all I know, that dude that posted the video is really a PETA member. It is like watching the last 5 seconds of the Rodney King video... Not really fair to hunting. Throw in the music and it gets worse.
2.) I SERIOUSLY doubt that they are wounding the animal to make it charge. I am sure that would result in the revocation of their license. Anyway, my experience is that cape buffalo, rino and hippos, given an even break, will charge.
There have been too many people killed by cape buffs and other animals depicted to engage in foolish behavior. If they DID do something unethical, know that one day they will miss or have a misfire or something of that nature and the life will be stomped out of them by a buffalo…
1.) Some amazing footage of shooting a charging buffalo... I am with the other posters, having the music their seems wanton. But as you watch it, remember Michael Moore... He took some fairly innocent footage, did some hocus pocus and got a slam peice from it... For all I know, that dude that posted the video is really a PETA member. It is like watching the last 5 seconds of the Rodney King video... Not really fair to hunting. Throw in the music and it gets worse.
2.) I SERIOUSLY doubt that they are wounding the animal to make it charge. I am sure that would result in the revocation of their license. Anyway, my experience is that cape buffalo, rino and hippos, given an even break, will charge.
There have been too many people killed by cape buffs and other animals depicted to engage in foolish behavior. If they DID do something unethical, know that one day they will miss or have a misfire or something of that nature and the life will be stomped out of them by a buffalo…
Harley Quinn
Member
I watched a video the other day about some Buf's kicking the heck out of a pride of lioness's. Might even have gotten a few lions. It was unreal, really there was this big one (Cape) who just took it to them.
They had attacked a small calf and that thing was being mauled and chewed on and after the the whole ordeal, it gets up and runs off...Wowww tough, but I am sure it died later, even "crocs" got in on the action.
Anyone else see that video?
They had attacked a small calf and that thing was being mauled and chewed on and after the the whole ordeal, it gets up and runs off...Wowww tough, but I am sure it died later, even "crocs" got in on the action.
Anyone else see that video?
pdowg881
Member
Yea that was a crazy video. The alligator cam to the ebdge of the water and it was a tug of war. Then the whole herd of buffaoo stood up to the lions. Someones gotta have a link to that.
S&WKING
Member
dont you ever see animal planet were they just drive jeeps right up to them and they just sit there and dont care
Sniper X
Member
slightly off topic, but who is that guy who lets dangerous game charge him to basically his feet and shoots them with a .577 or whatever at about 10 feet so they drop at his feet? I heard he got killed by a charging Wildebeast!
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That is Mark Sullivan, the Marks been killed rumor is a wide spread and widely varied story and it changes form year to year. I haven't heard the wildebeest version yet. But I like it.
And as I mentioned in my post above he is really doing quite well..For a dead man.
Mark is not dead, yet.
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S&Wking,
Most Animal Planet/National Geographic footage are filmed in national parks. Where just like here the wildlife has been conditioned to humans.
I can assure you that you can not "just drive right up to them" in the wild.
Comparing park animals to wild animals outside of a park is an oxymoron.
Just like comparing Yellowstone elk to real life wild elk when it comes to behavior towards people.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
LOL, being worried about being disrespectful to an animal you just killed. Assuming the animal could understand respect, I doubt it would consider it respectful to be killed. So worrying about respect AFTER killing the animal seems silly.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Thaks for the hippo comment, HankB. There must be reams of pages on points of aim on heffalump and buffalo, and next to nothing on hippo.
Yeah, park animals and truly wild animals are two different categories of behavior. On one trip through Jellystone, I had to take a picture of my galfriend taking a picture from maybe fifteen yards, of a young-ish elk, just resting. He looked rather bored, as if to say, "My shift's over at 4PM."
Art
Yeah, park animals and truly wild animals are two different categories of behavior. On one trip through Jellystone, I had to take a picture of my galfriend taking a picture from maybe fifteen yards, of a young-ish elk, just resting. He looked rather bored, as if to say, "My shift's over at 4PM."
Art
My opinon? Its stupid. Also, I honestly get sick and tired of reading about "respect of animals in relation to hunting". Im sorry, but respect was probably lost when you blew the animals head off. Also, what in Gods name are you going to do with a lion other than mount it so people will think your cool? I am not against hunting, but I do not hunt myself. If you take a deer or two a year for food, that is fine by me. However if you kill them and leave them in the field (yes, I know a couple of people that do this), you are just sick. That vid is just wrong. I agree with nothing in it. People with too much money and time. Want to look cool with a stuffed Lion in their house. I honestly would like to see a vid of a "miss" where one of those animals tears someone a new A-hole.
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jhunter,
I am glad that "If you take a deer or two a year for food, that is fine by me."
Are there any other activities that we need your approval on?
For all of you guys who don't understand respect for an animal in regards to hunting well. You simply don't get it.
I am glad that "If you take a deer or two a year for food, that is fine by me."
Are there any other activities that we need your approval on?
For all of you guys who don't understand respect for an animal in regards to hunting well. You simply don't get it.
Harley Quinn
Member
jhunter
You are espousing similar thoughts to what I have heard and seen, years ago back in the 70's. I was invited to a party in the Hollywood hills (famous hunter) he had so many trophies it is/was unbelievable.
Everyone was really caught up in it and the party was going well.
As parties go lots of drinking went on. A young man who was invited started to say it was wrong to do what this man did (hang um on the wall).
The man assured him the natives got to eat better, when he was there.
It did not matter to the young man, he was drunk and started crying, and saying he was sick to his stomach about the killing of these poor animals.
It was really something to see, believe me.
This person (hunter) was very wealthy and had many charities he helped also, here and abroad. He was paying his way, plus...If you will notice it is common knowledge the poachers of the area are the ones who have really caused havic, not the pay as you go folks.
To wish death and maiming on your part only weakens your side of the story, these people who get close and kill, have a certain strength you will never understand.
HQ
You are espousing similar thoughts to what I have heard and seen, years ago back in the 70's. I was invited to a party in the Hollywood hills (famous hunter) he had so many trophies it is/was unbelievable.
Everyone was really caught up in it and the party was going well.
As parties go lots of drinking went on. A young man who was invited started to say it was wrong to do what this man did (hang um on the wall).
The man assured him the natives got to eat better, when he was there.
It did not matter to the young man, he was drunk and started crying, and saying he was sick to his stomach about the killing of these poor animals.
It was really something to see, believe me.
This person (hunter) was very wealthy and had many charities he helped also, here and abroad. He was paying his way, plus...If you will notice it is common knowledge the poachers of the area are the ones who have really caused havic, not the pay as you go folks.
To wish death and maiming on your part only weakens your side of the story, these people who get close and kill, have a certain strength you will never understand.
HQ
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
jhunter, folks who'd kill an animal and just leave it in the field--omitting pests, of course--aren't what the vast majority of us consider "hunters". Treating any game animal in that manner is immoral and illegal and IMO, the first takes precedence. It's an ethics thing, codified into law.
As far as respect, yes, of course: That's the reason for the effort to make any kill as fast as possible. To minimize any suffering, ideally toward "none".
Art
As far as respect, yes, of course: That's the reason for the effort to make any kill as fast as possible. To minimize any suffering, ideally toward "none".
Art
Harley, I am no activist. I eat meat, and I rode bulls for 10 years (so I understand the certain strength you relate to, but I did not have a high powered rifle when things went bad.) Maybe I was just brought up different. Kill for food, not sport. Death was wished upon nobody if you read it. Just a new A-Hole.
H&H, you do not need approval from anyone. Kill as you wish. Hope its fun. Just said that was not a problem by me, not that you need my approval. I have a right to an opinion just as you do. If you are really into hunting, you probably know a friend of mine. He has been on a few hunting magazine covers, and hunts all over the world. Still a friend, even if I do not agree with his hobby. He stalks his game and does not use the easy way out like the vid represents, which is good.
Art, I agree with the kill as fast as possible from an ethical standpoint, but I just cant see where respect falls into the deal. I might kill something and be somewhat ethical about it, but I would not kill something I had respect for I dont think..
Anyway, I am here to discuss guns, not hunting. I will stay out of it. I do not like to argue with people. Just had to express my feelings toward the video and the people involved. And no Harley, I am not the homo in the hills you met in the 70's.
H&H, you do not need approval from anyone. Kill as you wish. Hope its fun. Just said that was not a problem by me, not that you need my approval. I have a right to an opinion just as you do. If you are really into hunting, you probably know a friend of mine. He has been on a few hunting magazine covers, and hunts all over the world. Still a friend, even if I do not agree with his hobby. He stalks his game and does not use the easy way out like the vid represents, which is good.
Art, I agree with the kill as fast as possible from an ethical standpoint, but I just cant see where respect falls into the deal. I might kill something and be somewhat ethical about it, but I would not kill something I had respect for I dont think..
Anyway, I am here to discuss guns, not hunting. I will stay out of it. I do not like to argue with people. Just had to express my feelings toward the video and the people involved. And no Harley, I am not the homo in the hills you met in the 70's.
Yes, some respect H&H, but "I" did not kill them. I am red meat free. Chicken/Turkey/Fish only. I feel better (health wise) eating only those meats. If I choose to eat beef, there is plenty at the market/steakhouse, no reason to kill more. No reason to defend you sport, its your choice and your free to do it. I have nothing against you, just a difference in opinion is all. I am not a PETA supporter, and do not go on animal rights protests. I dont like dog fighting, and do not like killing for the "sport" in it.
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