Aftermath of a shooting (my story)

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divemedic

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In the summer of 1991, Virginia Beach, VA. I was involved in an incident in which shots were fired. I did not fire them, and witnesses misidentified me as the shooter. I am posting this story to illustrate what can and did happen.

I lived on the end of a dead end street near Newtown Road in Virginia Beach. MY neighbors had gotten clearance from the city to close off the street and have a block party. There was a lot of beer drinking and BBQ. I had been out at the movies with my (then) wife. I had NOT been drinking, nor had my wife. We arrived home at about 10:00 pm, and found some of the neighbors still partying. The wife stayed out to talk to the neighbors, but the BBQ was all gone, so I went in the house to make a sandwich.

When I came back outside, I found her and my next door neighbor having a loud argument with a man I had never seen before. I walked over in time to hear the man threaten to strike my wife. I walked over and asked what the problem was. The man told me that he was going to beat up this "***hole and his **** girlfriend." I said that I didn't know what the problem was, but that he should not refer to wife that way, and that he needed to leave. I told him that we had called the cops, and that if he left right away, I would forget what he looked like when the cops arrived.

He told me that if I didn't get out of the way, I was gonna get it too. That was when I noticed that he was holding a baseball bat. Seeing a weapon immediately changed my mindset. I drew my weapon (at the time I carried a S&W 4506) and ordered him to drop the bat. Still holding the bat, he turned around and walked away, and told me he was a part of "The Bayside Arms Posse" and that he was going to come back and show me whose town this was.

We called the cops. 15 minutes later, they arrived, and assured me that they would handle it by driving the area (Bayside Arms Apartments)where the gang hangs out. They left.

A few minutes later, there was a neighbor from a few doors down knocking at my back door. It seems there was 6 or 7 miscreants going door to door looking for me. As my wife again called the police, I grabbed my shotgun (870 Wingmaster with 19 inch barrel and an extended 8 round mag tube) and opened the door. I racked the shotgun, and immediately heard someone yell "They have guns, let's get out of here!" They jumped in a car with no license plate, and fled with their lights off. I did not see them very well.

When the police arrived (ten minutes later) they searched the neighborhood, and then they left, promising to make more frequent patrols. My neighbor came over, and we both agreed that the idiots would return. We hid in the street armed, hiding among the parked cars, waiting for them. As it turned out, we didn't have to wait long...
 
Just after midnight, two cars full of people pulled down the street. The car closest to me had 4 teenagers in the car. It was later determined that the car closest to me contained one female and three males. They were all known gang members with lengthy arrest records for various offenses including drug offenses and weapons charges. One of them had been arrested 22 times before his 17th birthday.

I didn't know any of this. All I knew was that a car load of people who had threatened violence was 10 feet from me, and the front seat passenger had what appeared to be a long gun in his hand. (It turned out to be an SKS- at the time, one could be bought for $95) I ran to the car and stuck my shotgun into the window of the car. I said something along the lines of "If anyone moves, I will kill you."

I then heard a shot. I looked up in time to see the other car peeling away, and my neighbor lying on the ground. The car closest to me sped away. As they drove away, another neighbor (who HAD been drinking) ran out of his house and fired a shotgun at the car. (It was a 12 ga Mossberg 500 with a 3" magnum barrel) I dragged my downed neighbor into my house to find my wife on the floor of the kitchen, talking to the police.

It turns out that my neighbor dove when he saw a handgun, and was not hit when the shot was fired.

They arrived less than 5 minutes later, but it seemed much longer. We told them our story. While we were doing so, the car came back. This teens were all unarmed, and claimed that they were sitting at the light when I shot at them for no reason. They showed a pattern of holes in the driver's side door of their car.

I pointed out that the pellet count in their car was too high for my 2 3/4" shotgun, and that they could not have happened they way they said, as the bullet holes were in the wrong side of the car. The cops told me not to tell them how to do their job. I was photographed, and my guns taken. An SKS was found in the trunk of the teens' car, which the cops also took. more to follow...
 
I guess it's a good thing he wasn't shooting at the car you were standing next to...

And now...

Page 3. :D
 
Three days later, I got a call from a detective with VA Beach police. He said that he had a warrant for my arrest, and that if I came in that afternoon, he would get me released on my own recognizance. He said if he had to look for me, the bond would be high, considering the charges. I was stunned. I drove to the police station, where I was arrested for brandishing, discharging a firearm within city limits, discharging a firearm into an occupied vehicle, and aggravated battery.

I went to see the attorney that helped me get my CWL (he had been recommended by the NRA) and we went to the prosecutor's office and filed charges ourselves against the teens for aggravated battery (the cops refused to- they said that they had not seen them brandishing a weapon).

When we got to the court, it turned out that the tests on my shotgun did indeed show that my shotgun had not been fired, nor had any other weapon that the police had taken that night. There was no evidence of GSR on my hands. However, the witnesses (teens in the car) all testified that they had seen me shooting.

Then, the attorneys asked the judge if they could have a recess, and it was granted. My attorney talked to the others, and then came over to me and said that the other side had offered to drop the charges against me, if we agreed to drop our charges against them. We agreed, and so did they. It all went away.

For weeks after that, gang members would sit outside of my house, watching us through binoculars. We called the cops daily. I still had no weapons, as mine had not yet been returned. They had plenty, I guess bought on the street. One day, my neighbor came over and told me he knew how to put a stop to the harassment.

He stood in my second floor bedroom, about 10 feet back from the window, looking back at the gangsters through the scope of his Remington 700. After a minute or two, the one with the binoculars did a double take, and they got in their car and left.

The harassment continued, and my wife did not want to stay home alone. We moved a few miles down the road.

Lessons learned:

- I should not have allowed the bat wielding teen to leave AND/OR
- Once I saw a weapon (the SKS) in the teen's hands in the car, I should have shot him. Letting either of them leave, taking with them the evidence to prove me correct, was a mistake.
- When the police arrive, keep quiet until you have an attorney there. There is not anything you can say that will help you that won't wait and help you after the attorney gets there. You can, however, say something stupid or make a minor mistake that will come back to haunt you.
- When the cops get there, they will likely take all of your guns, not just the ones they think were involved.
- Lawyer up. Don't try to handle things yourself. There is an old saying: "A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge." I was amazed at how my attorney knew everyone, and at how he got things done that I couldn't. Well worth the money.
- Situations are seldom as cut and dried as the fantasy shoots I see everyone here posting about all the time, usually followed by "I woulda..."
- In each case where we called the cops, there was at least a 10 minute response time
 
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Great post, thanks for sharing. Lots of good points listed in there about how a real life incident will likely occur.
 
I live there. (Well, at the moment, my wife, children, dogs, and stuff live there) I LOVE that town. I have made it my home for the last twelve years. Although I intend to someday move back to NYS, I will always love VA Beach.
My wife has twice chased teenagers out of our yard with a shotgun. We have a six-foot privacy fence with no gate, and 18" of lattice-top. How did they get in my yard? Why? No idea, but my wife with the 870 in her hands drove them off. I was in Iraq both times. The moral of the story is that this crap happens everywhere. It's not something new, and not something unique to Detroit or Atlanta. Everyone must be prepared. Everyone must pay attention. We have to look out for each other. Always.
My best wishes to you. I don't know how you DIDN'T shoot the guy with the sks. It would be very hard to restrain myself.
 
- I should not have allowed the bat wielding teen to leave AND/OR
- Once I saw a weapon (the SKS) in the teen's hands in the car, I should have shot him.
In the latter case you might have gotten away with shooting the SKS holder; however, in retrospect, since it is obvious that you didn't need to use deadly force it could be a bit problematic for you to publicly say you should have shot him when the evidence proves you didn't absolutely need to. Since it's obvious that you didn't actually need to use deadly force it follows from the law that deadly force would not have been justified. That means what you're saying could be construed to be advocating murder.

The former can also be problematic. Trying to arrest/detain someone is a process full of pitfalls if you're not LE.

I think that you're saying that these courses of action would have minimized your legal problems--I think that's a bit short-sighted. Either of these courses of action might well have led to far more legal trouble than you encountered by taking the course of action you did.
 
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Definitely would've shot first and asked questions later, there is no way in hell I would let anyone brandish a weapon near me or my family without a fight. Sounds to me like you've got a little more self control than I would if I were ever in that situation.
 
I don't mean any disrespect but in VA were you covered by the Castle Doctrine or other laws that would allow you to be outside on the streets with a weapon? Just curious. Thanks for taking the time for typing that up too. Glad it worked out for you.
 
Sounds like divemedic did everything "right".

It's so damn infuriating, though, that doing "the right thing" results not in the criminals (known gang members!) going to jail but in divemedic's family being repeatedly exposed to danger.

Just as infuriating is knowing that if divemedic had done the 'correct' thing, he may have gone to jail while the majority of that gang was free to wreak revenge upon his wife and neighbors while he was helplessly incarcerated.

"civilization" does have it's down moments.
 
Since it's obvious that you didn't actually need to use deadly force it follows from the law that deadly force would not have been justified.

That's only obvious in hindsight. Approaching the vehicle, giving warnings, etc. are incredibly foolish if facing an imminent threat armed with an SKS. It also isn't too wise to order people not to move. You want them to leave, not to arrest them. If you see the threat, see the threat armed, and have a good reason to believe you're facing imminent danger from that threat--OPEN FIRE INSTANTLY. Do not warn, do not debate, do not posture, do not discuss, do not reason. Shoot, shoot and shoot again until the threat is gone. This business of chest pounding and threatening is tactically unsound, and can easily get you killed. They had made their intentions plain, and when they RETURNED with ARMS looking for you, you should never have continued to try to defuse the situation, "arrest" them or anything of the kind. It's just lucky they decided not to shoot it out.

Here's a good test. If you are faced with the imminent, deadly and unlawful force your lips should not be moving at all, only your hands. You should not be discussing anything, warning, threatening, etc. This goes against human nature, since we've learned since childhood to talk things out. But that rule does not apply anymore when you must act to defend your life. You're in the reptile world. The one who bites first and hardest wins.
 
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His altercation took place in 1991. This country has decidedly gotten more self defense friendly as far as the law and local prosecutors are concerned. People in the 1980s and 1990s used to get routinely charged for murder in situations that people now walk free and clear in. In Florida and maybe other states you are now even protected from civil lawsuits after cleared in a self-defense shooting. That was unheard of until recently. Different time and different laws, at least IMHO.

Also, at least in Florida, gangs used to be given more freedom to operate. If a situation like OP described happened where I live now it would result in a literal army of LEOs and the gang members would be dealt with ruthlessly. As a kid in the 1980s and 1990s in the Miami area I can remember drive-by shootings where 1 or 2 officers would show up and they wouldn't even bother looking for the shooters.

Good post. People use to have the mentality that if they needed to shoot they should shoot to wound to avoid any legal problems. It appears to have totally swung the other way.
 
Your nieghbor with the scoped rifle...liked that part...the part where afterwards you an the nieghbors (drunk?) took to the streets with shotguns.....if you had shot someone that might of gone real bad for you in court. The guy with the bat left, how would you of stopped him from leaving....?...shot him...? You got out of this without having to kill anyone an that is always good. Sorry that you had to move, but that was probably a wise move to protect your family....sorry the cops couldn't of done more to help you.
 
That's only obvious in hindsight.
I tried to make that plain. What is problematic is (ALSO in hindsight) saying that he should have shot the SKS holder. Since (in hindsight) it wasn't necessary saying (in hindsight) he should have shot him knowing (in hindsight) that it wasn't necessary it could be seen as saying he should have shot someone when it wasn't necessary.

If you shoot someone when it's not necessary it is not justifiable. So, when one looks at the whole picture (in hindsight) and says that the SKS holder should have been shot, one is essentially saying that the SKS holder should have been murdered.

I mentioned that he might have gotten away with shooting the SKS holder (at the time) given the circumstances. Had I been on the jury I wouldn't have convicted him for shooting someone who was threatening him with a firearm (not, of course, being able to know what would have happened had he not taken that action). The problem comes when one looks back on the situation (knowing what happened--knowing that shooting the SKS holder wasn't necessary to save life/prevent serious injury) and says that he should have been shot.
 
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My next door neighbor when I was growing up was the President of our State Bar Association. People get messed with all the time and they don't have a clue.
 
I would have sent my uncle Guido after them.

THR does not advocate anything like that. THR does not talk about situations of personal revenge, getting even, etc. In short, THR is all about staying strictly within the confines of the law.

What you may or may not do in such a situation would be wisely kept, well, a secret known only to you and your closest, trusted associates.


Divemedic, I've also read your story before. M4carbine.net?
 
what a sticky situation... especially facing the limitations of law enforcement to prevent crime. There's only so much they can do. That was a fight or flight situation of the worst kind. I think your ambush could have used some better planning. Establish hard cover, wait for them to exit their cars, take them with maximum violence of action, and have at least one rifle on overwatch. But then, what about the rest of the gang? The only other option is to get out of town for a while, then come back just long enough to move out... your own witness protection program.

When it's your word against his.... it's a lot easier if he's dead.

It never hurts your credibility to be on your own property.

Armed defenders generally have the advantage.

.
 
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