Air Gun Newbie Questions

[DCoats]

Okay guys, I have been experimenting with my RWS 34, with iron sights for about 250 rounds, an RWS scope for approximately 300 shots, and now back to the irons. I am getting a little frustrated and thought I would come to vent/ bounce ideas off of the communal wisdom of THR. This is my first time shooting a rifle really, so this is a great learning experience for me.

With the irons, after initially learning how to fiddle with the sight alignment was giving me pretty reliable, although newbie, groups (sub 3" at 30ish yards). It came out of the box shooting so low I was completely missing the pellet trap. These were all with RWS Superdome pellets. I adjusted the sights and got it sighted in fairly well (about as well as I could do not knowing if my misses were from my poor shooting ability or the sight picture not being right).

For a while with the scope and the Superdome pellets I was able to get rediculous crazy good groups such as occasionally 1" 3 shot groups. (again after much trial and error with sighting it in). Everytime I brought out the gun, the sight alignment was off again though. Sometimes way off. But usually when I took it out it was down 5 inches and to the left about 3 inches. As I got towards the end of the tin of Superdomes the sighting was hopelessly lost. I couldn't crank the reticle any further in the indicated up direction and the groups also became erratic. The pattern went really wide with a apparent tendency to be down and to the left sort of. I also noticed that I had to tighten the mounting screws on the scope after a shooting session. I had the scope magnification at 6X for a long time and then went all the way up to 12X for a while. I've also been fiddling with the paralax error adjustment dial between 15 yds to 30 yds not really noticing a difference in point of impact.

I ran some low quality Crosman and Daisy pellets to see if a different pellet would change anything (it was all I had available for my other cheap bb gun), with equally bleh results. I knocked the scope back down to 6X magnification (it can go down to 4X but my poor eyesight couldn't focus on the target). I still noticed down and to the left with stray shots kind of all over the place but never higher or to the right of my point of aim. I took the scope off at this point and went back to the irons. Even with the Daisy "premium" wadcutter pellets, the iron sights seemed to work better than the scope, it was hitting just left of my point of aim about 3 inches with about a 2-3" groups at 25 yds. I am left feeling a bit lost like there are so many factors I'm not sure what I'm screwing up. :banghead:

Now here are a few of my ideas not sure which is the case or not:


1) HUMAN ERROR-- I'm flinching or snapping the trigger despite focusing on my sight picture and squeezing the trigger as slowly and smoothly as I can. I also have no clue how to get my sights on target despite brief periods of success. This must explain such wide groupings with the same pellet and the same sight alignment...

2) Get a variety of high quality pellets from RWS to see what runs best. The superdomes ran well for a while didn't they?

3) The rifle just isn't broken in yet. Is accuracy supposed to be this off untill I put 2000 shots through it?

4) The scope may be a limited tool due to the fact that the barrel is constantly moving when I break it open to reload and snapping to close. It may not be precisely in the same location everytime, nor will every pellet be seated exactly the same way.

5) My hold on the rifle is not correct. I am told on various airgun sites that holding the stock too tightly in the shoulder pocket or in the wrong place with my non-trigger hand will affect the vibrations of the barrel thus affecting the shot. I feel like if I hold it any looser I can't hold the sights on the target....

6) Anything else that I am not thinking of High Roaders?

I feel so frustrated after having a couple hundred rounds of feeling like I had it all figured out to now just being all over the paper. Any tips or ideas would be great. For now I'm sticking with the iron sights, bringing the target in closer, and will perhaps get better pellets.

 

[BamBam-31]

www.straightshooters.com

No clue what's going on w/ you and your rifle set-up, sorry. One thing I do know is air rifles and pistols need to be held steadier than firearms because of the slower muzzle velocities involved. IOW, follow-through w/ air guns is very important.

Good luck.

 

[Reyn]

What kind of scope? Air rifles can be brutal on scopes.

 

[pbrktrt]

try sighting it in at 10 feet. once you have that dialed in everything should follow. you can even zero your scope at this distance with a solid rest. take a shot or two, don't move the gun, make your adjustment, & you should be right on.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Not sure if i'll be any help here or not,as i've broken open a bottle of rum while i maraud the inter-web, but no one else is chiming in,so......
I bought a RWS 34 a few months ago, and before it even arrived, had sold it to my brother and ordered a Beeman R9. When the 34 arrived, i almost regretted upgrading,because as you know, this is one solid peice of German craftsmanship. We took it out the night it arrived, and even after a few "beverages", pretty much hit anything we aimed at, with iron sights. We were impressed. Later, my brother put a cheesball little Powerline (Daisy) scope on it that he somehow had lying around, using the scope mount i ordered when i bought the rifle,and that thing has been dialed in since day-one !!
Now, if you've done your RWS34 research, you know that they have "barrel droop" issues, where the barrel angle "drops" and doesn't properly line up with where a mounted scope is pointing. This is fixed by using an adjustable mount
( which we don't have, so go figure) or by shimming the mount.Again, i don't know why this common problem hasn't plagued this rifle.
You could also be running into problems with your mount or rings vibrating loose. Or it could be your stock screws vibrating loose. That was a regular problem on my R9. I ended up getting some BLUE loc-tite, and they've stayed firm ever since.( Well, i did apply it a 2nd time).
Also, from what i've heard/read/been told, they only take a thousand or so shots to break in, not twice that ( and we felt our rifles were shooting accurately and consistently well before a thousand.)
Another thing, if you've fired that many rounds, it's time to punch the bore to clean any lead dust out, which does eventually affect accuracy. Do NOT use a metal bristle brush. Or any solvents. Just run a dry patch through a couple times.
And finally.........i'm htting you with both barrels now.....because i think you're ready, and you may need it........call the two guys at straightshooters, Craig and Kevin, if memory serves. They run a highly respected,top-notch airgun buisness outa Minnesota somehwhere(place i got my Beeman), and they really know their ****.s It was once said to me " be forewarned, they willl chew your ear off", and that was an understatement, but they are good guys, and they have forgotten more about air-rifles and associated problems than the entire world ever knew.Really.
My work is done here.

 

[280shooter]

break in period,it needs broke on, It will shoot better,I went through the same thing with my rws 45,I bought mine in 1980,I modified it alot. but i can shoot,1/2 groups all day even smaller,at 20 yards,Mines a 177,i have a air rifle scope on mine,And U have to USE AIR RIFLE scope only.you can Buy 2.000 buck scope and add that I can garrentee it will be destoyed in short order,SO U MUST USE A AIR RIFLE SCOPE,But it will shoot better,It migh take 1000 pelletts before it shoot right for you.And try the other RWS types of pelletts,MY buddie has a 52, he was pulling his hair out tring to get it to shoot,took the scope off, went to his iron sights,before he listen to me about it has to break in,

 

[dagger dog]

Air rifle accuracy is extremely influenced by pellet design and weight. Try as you have with the Crossman brand other makers pellets Beeman has a good line also step up to the higher grade, some make match pellets,wich are swaged to excating tolerences(very pricey), or the next grade down which have been produced on equipment with known closer tolerence (high than bulk but less than true match).
Pellet weight plays a large role try to find the best .

On the rifle and scope , barrel to receiver lock up should be adjustable on the RWS the pivot bolt can be tightened to give more consistent lock up, you want the friction to be enough to hold the barrel when it is pulled free of the ball detent, you don't want the barrel to fall free when released from this position.

Make sure you are shooting with a dry bore, and don't over lube the piston, a sure sign of over lubing is smoke in the chamber or barrel.

Are the rings and mounts on the scope are properly tightened? Is the mount adjusable? If yes make sure it is centered over the bore.

Hope this helps.

 

[jwh2]

Go here and ask your questions.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/

James

 

[woof]

My first two thoughts: flinch and scope.

 

[HB]

A few things...

I would think it is one of these issues:
1. Scope is damaged
2. Scope mount is shifting
3. Stock screws are loose
4. Human error

Does the gun's firing cycle different than it used to be? That could point to spring issues.

HB

P.S. Check out this site http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/

 

[DCoats]

Okay, so I brought in the pellet trap to a little over 10 ft away. Iron sights only, working on following through the shot, gently squeezing the trigger and keeping the sights on the target. This is with the cheapo Daisy pellets still. I took every shot from a seated position keeping my elbows on my knees despite the target's instructions. All in all I feel like the rifle shoots better than I am able to. I think my next step is to back the target out again while keeping a similar group, and then try the scope again. It's a little hard to see in the pictures but the paper tears on the right side of the large silhouette are not pellet holes but fragments escaping the trap. Also, there are two holes in the black on the smallest silhouette with the stray pellet grazing the line in the silhouette above it. The targetz.com target is a 5 shot group with three touching.

 

[RecoilRob]

Welcome to Spring Rifles!

They can be strange for us 'powder burners'. The RWS mounts are crap. Guaranteed frustration trying to use them.
Being 'adjustable', they are mostly impossible to lock in place and will frustrate the crap out of you trying to use them. Mine are in the 'box of parts that will likely never see the light of day again'. Being a packrat (like most here) I will never throw ANYTHING away, but it is MOST unlikely that the RWS mount will ever be on another rifle.

The 34 CAN be an excellent shooting rifle. The break-cocking mechanism returns to zero well and doesn't make a receiver mounted scope inaccurate. A badly mounted scope makes the scope inaccurate. The RWS scopes can take the recoil fine, your problem there is the mount.

BKL makes 'drooper' mounts that have a few degrees built into them to add to the scopes internal elevation adjustments to get you zero'd. My RWS 48 needed more 'adjustment' than the highest drooper mount offered. I bent the barrel to get it zero'd.

Having been through all this, I'd get a solid mount and bend the barrel until it shot where the scope pointed when internally zero'd. Not hard to bend the barrel and, despite the HORROR of many hearing of this practice, it is quite acceptable in airgun circles and actually a 'dirty little secret' of the guys who know.

Of course, a spring gun recoils weird to us and most need LESS contact whilst shooting. Let it move. This will make you more consistant.

 

[Zouave Rifle]

I've got a cheap Chinese airgun, and I get the best groups with the Crossman pellets. I think they're softer pellets than chinese/RWS/Daisy pellets. They also shoot to point of aim in my rifle with the iron sights. I don't have a 3/8" scope rail on this air rifle, so I haven't been able to mount optics.

On another air rifle, I had good results with one of the ~$10 Daisy red-dot sights, so you might consider one of those if you want to do any airgun hunting or quick shooting.

 

[DCoats]

Wow, I thought I did my research but this barrel droop phenemena is what I think the culprit is when I try to get the scope to work.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/01/barrel-droop.html

Now maybe you all can help me out in finding an adjustable or "drooper" mount that would be appropriate for this scope....
http://www.umarexusa.com/detail.aspx?ID=147

I believe its a 30mm tube, and it comes with the mount pictured. I think that if I got a different mount my troubles may be over.

 

[Jimmy Newman]

....

 

[elmerfudd]

Spring guns can be extremely hold sensitive. I have a Kodiak that I once did an experiment with shooting groups using different holds at 40 yards. I managed some pretty good groups at that range, but the point of impact varied by as much as 6" at 40 yards depending on how I held the rifle. So if I hadn't been aware of exactly how I was holding the rifle my groups could have been 7"+ and I wouldn't have known what was wrong.

You have to hold it exactly the same with every shot and you have to hold it loosely so that you aren't fighting it when it does it's double recoil, jump around thing. You see, when you fire a spring piston airgun you experience the recoil while the pellet is still traveling down the barrel since, unlike a firearm, most of the recoil is caused by the movement of the piston rather than the acceleration of the pellet. If you hold the rifle firmly then any minute differences in your hold or your stance will influence your point of impact. By holding it loosely you allow it to go through it's recoil cycle with less human interference.

Spring guns don't generally shoot well from a bench. If you want to bench it, use a pillow or something similar that will let it recoil freely.

There is a sweet spot on spring guns when it comes to holding the foreend. Generally it's a couple inches in front of the trigger guard right near the balance point of the rifle. When you rest the rifle, (don't grip it, just rest it on your palm), on the sweet spot you'll shoot tighter groups. Experiment a little to find where it is on your rifle. Some people even mark it with tape.

The best way to hold a shoot a springer is with a very light grip. Don't wrap your thumb around the pistol grip. Rest the forearm on your palm at the sweet spot and let your cheek and shoulder lightly contact the stock, but don't press them against it.

RWS mounts are indeed crap. Use them on a Rimfire or CO2 rifle and use Loctite and you should be OK, but don't use them on a spring gun or a centerfire.

 

[DCoats]

I will indeed look into the proper grip on the springer... Thanks for the tips. I already knew about holding the forend lightly in the palm at the right location, but I didn't think about the firing hand thumb and my face pressing against the stock. I will experiment.

 

[DCoats]

Okay, despite what I previously planned on doing, the curiosity on the scope was killing me. I shot this today from 7 yds after remounting the scope with the same mount it came with. I turned the adjustment knobs all the way in one direction, cut the number of clicks it took in half roughly, and centered the elevation and windage with the median number of clicks. The first shot I was aiming for the center obviously and after seeing the point of impact, raised my point of aim up to the X. Its point of impact is about about 3 1/2 inches low and 3 1/2 inches left. I think I have eliminated other variables such as the rifle itself, and my hold on it (at least at 7 yds for what thats worth). I think there is some of that "barrel droop" in relation to the scope so do I need to go with an adjustable mount? I'm thinking I shouldn't even touch the knobs anymore. I think the reason for my previously erratic shot placement was because the elevation was adjusted too high resulting in "floating" the erector tube.

http://www.pyramydair.com/scope-shift-barrel-drop.shtml

 

[280shooter]

go buy a scope.I have a BSA its not bad for the money,
I had to add a high power >Gun powder gun.< scope mount and rings. the RWS factory ones arent cutting it. all that recoil made the scope rings just walk right off the base.NO mater how tight i tried to keep that tight.
I use a old camera tri pod.as a rest,i have a pad under the air rifle.that works for me..I can kill black birds at 25 yards from that set up.

But you do need to get a hafl decent scope.just my thoughts

RWS sells a combo pack of pellets. with dif. designs some are of dif weight.you might want to check that out too..Mine wont shoot beemens. I tried the silver something or another.. But i only shoot the superpoints

 

[DCoats]

Still thinking about this problem. I think an adjustable mount is what I need. Will this one work?

The rifle is more accurate than I am, and the scope itself I believe is fine. I need the optics because of poor vision. I found this one, but due to the 50mm objective I am unsure if it will "fit." It says that it mounts "low." I am still new to all this.

http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=195

 

[hossdaniels]

I'm not sure about your rifle/scope, but a 50mm scope usually requires high or extra high rings. I'm fairly certain that low rings will not work.

 

[foghornl]

Air rifles do have a different "recoil pulse", and even very expensive 'standard rifle scopes' tend not to last very long on them.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think you'll need a scope designed to be used on airguns, as due to their strange recoil, they destroy normal rifle scopes.

 

[mr.trooper]

This happens a LOT with high velocity air guns: they shoot so far to the left/right/high/low that you have to crank the sights to max. And sometimes even that inst enough.

thats why i gave up, and started using CB shorts out of a long-barreled single shot. it actually quieter than a high powered pellet gun, and packs more punch.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Just to reiterate a few things:

1. "Airgun" scopes and "airgun" mounts tend to be junk. Use a quality scope like Burris, Leupold, Sightron, Nikon, or Bushnell Elite (preferably one with an AO adjustment). Use quality rings - rimfire rings (3/8ths" / dovetail) will work on the 11mm airgun rails. Forget RWS and Beeman optics - these are Chinese junk (oddly enough). You scope may or may not just be flat out broken - sounds like it probably is. Replace. Since you may have the dreaded "barrel droop", you want a scope which has a large range of adjustments. Otherwise you're looking at shimming and/or using some windage-adjustable rings.

2. Mounting issues: The scope can jump under recoil (2-way recoil). So, you need to mount the rear ring immediately adjacent to (in front of; touching), the integral scope stop which is already on the scope rail from the factory. This prevents rearward movement of the scope. As far as forward movement, I've not had a problem with this myself on RWS's, just due to the rings being tight I guess. But you can buy a "scope stop" to put just *in front* of one of the rings, to prevent forward jolting, if this becomes a problem for you. Also, if you cannot find a scope stop, as a substitute, you can simply use 4 rings (2 sets) instead of 2 rings - 2 on each side of the turrets - this makes it rock solid and prevents any jump. In any event, the ring screws need to be tight, and they need to be blue loctited since springers are brutal on vibration. Ditto for stock-receiver screw.

3. The low thing may be flinching; probably is. But could also be, as someone mentioned, a different "hold" - the tightness which which you hold the stock. It needs to be *consistent* more than anything, but springers usually shoot more accurately with a LOOSE hold than a tight hold, so a very consistent, mildly to moderately LOOSE hold is what you want. Let the gun move under recoil in your hands a bit. Flinching is just flinching and must be eliminated by concentration.

4. Use quality pellets. For max accuracy, do not use any Walmart or other big box store pellets, even if they are labeled "premium" - they are not. Use good Beeman, RWS, etc. pellets. Order online or from a gun store.

5. Experiment with different (but quality) pellets. Like all guns, air guns just have certain pellets they "like", and certains ones they don't. Find one it likes.

6. On the parallax thing, it is not unusual to have the same point of impact using differing parallax settings, in the situation you described, for two reasons: One is the scope is probably junk, and the parallax thing doesn't work or work right anyway, and two, if you have a good consistent perfectly-centered hold (your eye relative to the centerline of the scope), then you will shoot consistently regardless of a parallax error adjustment. Parallax error causing a change in the POI only comes into play with a slightly inconsistent hold (uncentered). The top of the line scope for an airgun, if you have $400-$600, is a Leupold Vari-X III or Sightron S3 with an AO adjustment (or for less $$, a Sightron S2 with AO adjustment). Do you have a budget for a better scope? If so, what's the budget? Even lower-end Bushnells like the Banner will usually hold up to airgun recoil, on a budget.

Save Up!!!!:
1. http://theopticzone.com/detail.aspx?ID=4378
2. http://actoptics.stores.yahoo.net/sightron-siii-624x50-rifle-scopes.html


7. Be extremely careful when cleaning and read up on the proper way to clean an airgun - the rifling is very thin and fragile and can be easily damaged.