Airsoft and a broken window

[mindwip]

Does anyone know how to explain that?

well basicly, think of a bug hitting your window in your car, and a rock

Bug flying 5mph to your car. Car going 70mph. The two hit. What happens the bug gets smashed on your window-window is fine

Rock is flying 5 mph to your car. Car going 70mph. The two hit What happens the rock does not give your window does-window is NOT fine.


metal/rock dont give-plastic BBs do, at slow speed its hard for something that givves to break a solid

thats the basics with out all that fancy math

of cousre we could say that all windows are a liquid and not solid, but thats getting too tech.

 

[thebigc]

i have broken glass on a cabnet window with an airsoft gun and damaged an older basement window from about 10 ft the cabniet one broke into peices but the basement one just had like and inch of glass missing and a lot of cracking. this with with some cheapo spring airsoft.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I heard an almighty thwack to my house. I have no idea what it was, couldn't see anything, but I even checked for broken windows. I can only think it was a bird or a rock and is the only glimmer of an explanation I can come up for my neighbor's borken window - maybe same thing happened to them.

Hmm... I sure hope it wasn't a ND on his part! Was it on the side if your house facing his? Might do some CSI type investigating and line up that window with where the sound came from and see if there is any damage to the outside of your house. If a bird hit his window hard enough to break it there will be a bird with a broken neck below his window.
Tell the kids they have to pay for it. Maybe one of them will fess up or snitch on the culprit if they really did break it

 

[geekWithA.45]

Pads into garage, loads cheapo springloaded airsoft, shoots 50 year old single pane window at range of 6 inches.

Nope, won't break a window.

Any questions?

 

[BeverlyD]

You are all the best and have helped me so much. Thank you for being so nonjudgemental. I was almost afraid to post in case I got branded a bad mother internationally. The 5 kids range in age from 12 to 14. My husband and I were around the house the entire time so I don't think the kids would break the window intentionally plus the neighbors were home too. However, never say "not my kid" because kids do make bad decisions. I have only talked with one of the kids because the others including my son left for various camps on Saturday. The child I spoke with said the neighbors did come out and ask them not to hit the house and he said they tried not to and that was all there was to the story.

So here's what I've decided to do. The kids will be back from their camps this weekend, so I am going to gather them all up including the parents and go over and apologize. I also will explain all the information I've gathered and if the neighbor still believes it was the BB then so be it, I will replace the window. I will let you know what happens. Thanks so much.

 

[Car Knocker]

By the way, Beverly, welcome to THR!

 

[Q-Lock]

I'll second that, welcome to THR. You'll love it!

Btw, your plan sounds like a good one.

Have a nice day,

 

[220_Swift]

When you get all of the kids and parents together, inform them of what your intentions are. And ask them that if the neighbor wants money, that you all split the total cost evenly. That way each child is just as responsible as the other. Then, make the kids pay you back. Good luck, and you will have to let us know what happens.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Well, here's another vote saying that an airsoft might break a window ... but IMHO it would depend on both the airsoft gun and the window.

Awhile back, we ran tests on a number of airsoft pistols. They weren't "Let's see if it'll break a window at 30 feet" tests, they were general evaluation tests. We shot them for accuracy at a distance of 25 feet, which distance was scientifically selected on the basis of being the longest clear shot I could get in my basement.

At that distance, most of the gas-powered PISTOLS would reliably penetrate three to four layers of corrugated cardboard box material. Our pseudo-scientific muzzle velocity testing device was an empty Coca-Cola can -- any airsoft pistol can shoot through both sides, and the higher powered ones will shoot through the bottom (which is thicker).

My testing was done with .20g pellets. Obviously, .12g pellets have less mass, but fired from the same gun they will also have more velocity. Energy being energy, the muzzle energy would be similar at the muzzle, and the question is which weight pellet retains more energy downrange. I don't have an answer for that.

Off the top of my head, I suspect that an airsoft pellet that scored a fairly straight-on hit would likely break glass ... especially if fired from a rifle rather than a pistol. But if the hit was at an angle, I sort of doubt it. A new, premium window should be double-pane insulated glass, and that should have a pressurized filling of inert gas between the two layers of glass. I would expect that to make it more difficult to break than an old-style "therma-pane" window that used a vacuum.

BTW -- Airsoft guns should probably not be used by kids for mock battles. I know they are cleaner than paintballs, but those pellets can HURT. And if head and eye protection isn't used, they can also do serious, permanent damage.

Maybe you can strike a deal with the neighbor. Offer to stand by your agreement to pay for the replacement, but make it on the condition that when the new window arrives, you get to shoot the window with the most powerful of the airguns in the kids' arsenal. If it doesn't make another hole, either the neighbor buys the new window or at least agrees that there's no proof the kids did it and agrees to pay half.

metal/rock dont give-plastic BBs do, at slow speed its hard for something that givves to break a solid

Airsoft pellets aren't soft and they don't "give." They either remain intact or they shatter on impact.

 

[joel1316]

My vote says "no", it will not break the window. Me and a couple "cool" neighbors play airsoft with each other using our houses as bases (end of court) to play with each other. We've hit walls, windows and other parts of the house with no damage. That's with more expensive, upgraded airsoft guns using .25 bb's going about 350-375fps. Those $20 guns go at about 180fps using .12 bb's.... I say it can't break a new house window...

 

[BeverlyD]

This was definitely at an angle. The window is at least 20 foot high and a straight shot is blocked by trees. The house is 5 years old and very up-scale so definitely premium windows. I contacted the manufacturer of the BBs yesterday, and they confirmed that the BBs would not break windows. I also contacted the local police because I wanted to unburden my soul and make sure I hadn't broken any laws. The officer said it was very unlikely to have been a BB. Finally, I do make the kids wear complete face protection and they don't shoot at close range, but unfortunately we just don't have a place for them to do this in complete safety so they'll have to stop.

 

[Fosbery]

If I were you I wouldn't stop your kids playing airsoft. It's a great activity and keeps them fit and active. Take this as an opportuniy to teach them some gun safey.

 

[mp510]

Our pseudo-scientific muzzle velocity testing device was an empty Coca-Cola can -- any airsoft pistol can shoot through both sides, and the higher powered ones will shoot through the bottom (which is thicker).

Not sure what you mean by "any" . I just ran a similar test, point blank on a soda can with 2 spring pistols. I used both Daisy Aluminum BB's, and Crosman plastic ones. The coke can was my ballistic medium. 1 shot from the crosmans managed to make 2 mm diameter penetration (on one side). The BB did and could not enter the "hole". The rest of the crosmans made dents. The Daisy's made even more minor dents due to decreased velocity due to added weight. I then shot at som glass, point blank with the crosmans. Made a neat sound, but no damage. All at point blank. At 20 feet I was lucky if I dented couragated. If they were using spring guns, there is no way the broke the window, esdpecially with the damage Becky described. At 20' I can break saltine crackers, if I use the cheap really thin generic ones (fun targets BTW ) Airsoft battles are (amazingly) a popular sport, which even has organized leagues. Have them stick to shooting targets with their airsoft guns, and they don't need the 360 degree perfect space they need for a battle. You can even set up a range in your basement as long as they wear eye protection.

 

[another okie]

The question of whether or not an Airsoft "can" break a window is no longer relevant to your situation. Your neighbor apparently believes it did, and you promised to fix the window. All this stuff about demonstrating with a window or giving him or her scientific information is what you should have done before promising to fix the window. Too late. You promised, keep your word.

If you want to ask for money from the parents of the other kids that's fine, but that has nothing to do with your initial payment to fix the window. Pay for the window, then go to the other parents. Don't tell the neighbor you'll fix it when the others kick in. That's just a self-rationalizing way of breaking your word as well.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I disagree that she is bound to her word in this case.

Her word was given in good faith, in response to a a set of seemingly plausible assertions which were subsequently found not to hold water.

This finding invalidates the premise upon which the word was based, and that is sufficient to re open negotiations.

Nonetheless, the situation should be resolved in a friendly, mutually agreeable fashion.

 

[chickenfried]

She said she'd replace the window, because she trusted her neighbor's assessment that the kid's airsoft guns broke the window. If it's highly unlikely that the airsoft guns damaged the window and they can not recreate the incident. I see no reason why she'd be obligated to repair the window.

 

[akodo]

The question of whether or not an Airsoft "can" break a window is no longer relevant to your situation. Your neighbor apparently believes it did, and you promised to fix the window. All this stuff about demonstrating with a window or giving him or her scientific information is what you should have done before promising to fix the window. Too late. You promised, keep your word.

I disagree. The promise was based on being told a lie. To me, the word given is that she would replace a window her son had damaged. As no such window exists, there is nothing to replace.

 

[Tim Burke]

Everyone that is saying "No way" is ignoring the fact that there are some here that report breaking windows with airsofts. Once it is done once, it can no longer be said to be impossible.
I don't know if an airsoft can break a window, but I do know one can break the driver's side mirror on an SUV. It was at close range, with a gas powered gun, but it was definitely broken by a plastic airsoft BB.

 

[rustymaggot]

you gave your word that you would pay for the window, but its pretty much proven that the window wasnt broken by the plastic bbs. this is like your neighbor saying you hit his car with your car and you promise to pay for damages, then later see that there is a blue paint scrape on his white car, but your car is red. would you still keep your word and pay for the cars damage? heck no!

your neighbor is either mistaken about what broke the window, or is trying to run a scam on you.

 

[Wiley]

Not to add too much extra to the mix, but can a metal BB be fired from an airsoft? If some metal BB's were introduced to the airsoft ammunition, what would the result be?

I think that airsofts were designed to be not only non-leathal but non-harmful. People being less forgiving than glass.

(Need a new forum: THR:CSI)

 

[Fosbery]

In theory, yes. They can shoot them, but they're so heavy compared to what they're designed to shoot that they would only travel a few meters. Some so called airsoft guns (the cheap stuff, thought not all cheap stuff) are designed to fire metal BBs. These could break a window, but it's still fairly unlikely on a new, double glazed window.

I play airsoft a lot at proper airsoft sites. One site I regularily attend is an urban complex. Inside the largest building it's like an office, with loads and loads of partitions and cubicles all with flass windows from stomach height up. This site operates every week and has dozens of people shooting high powered airsoft guns, on full auto, all over the place. I've never heard of any of the windows breaking, and these are just single pane.

 

[cordex]

Fosbery,
Often times, cubicle windows will use acrylic glass instead of real glass.

Everyone that is saying "No way" is ignoring the fact that there are some here that report breaking windows with airsofts. Once it is done once, it can no longer be said to be impossible.

Tim, I don't recall reading an instance here where a premium, modern, double-glazed exterior window similar to the one that was broken in BeverlyD's case was broken by 6mm plastic airsoft pellets.

It's like someone saying that they had shot through 1/8th inch mild steel when fired dead on with their high velocity .30-30 soft points, so it was possible that a downloaded .30-30 soft point would punch through 1/2" A500 armor plate when fired at an angle. Just because a .30-30 soft point cut through thin mild steel at a given angle doesn't mean it'll do the same for thicker and harder armor plate when fired at a lower velocity and a shallower angle. Similarly, just because 6mm airsoft pellets have been shown to crack thin, decorative plate glass, very old single-pane, exterior plate glass and sometimes car mirrors when shot dead-on - usually at extremely close range and many times with high-end airsoft guns does not imply at all that an airsoft pellet fired at an angle, across a yard, at a modern, premium exterior window, presumably from a lower-end spring or electric gun (there are children playing games, after all, I doubt they're using $400+ customized gas guns) will do anything more than plink off and irritate somebody inside.

 

[Tim Burke]

I don't recall reading an instance here where a premium, modern, double-glazed exterior window similar to the one that was broken in BeverlyD's case was broken by 6mm plastic airsoft pellets.

Agreed, and if every categorical statement of impossibility was as well qualified as your statement, I'd have less heartburn with them.
As I said, I don't know if an airsoft pellet could break any window, much less the one in question here. However, I would have thought that the glass used on a side mirror of a vehicle would have been even more resistant to impact than the neighbor's window.

 

[cordex]

However, I would have thought that the glass used on a side mirror of a vehicle would have been even more resistant to impact than the neighbor's window.

Because of the design, the vast majority of impacts would occur to the housing, not the mirror itself.

I admit, I am surprised that the mirror was broken as well. Can you share any more specifics? Estimated FPS for that gun, make and model of vehicle, weight of pellet, etc.

 

[Tim Burke]

Because of the design, the vast majority of impacts would occur to the housing, not the mirror itself.

Normally you would think so... but it was the driver shooting the gun.

I admit, I am surprised that the mirror was broken as well. Can you share any more specifics? Estimated FPS for that gun, make and model of vehicle, weight of pellet, etc.

It was what ever we were using for the FoF class; they were all green gas guns. This was March 2004, and I don't recall many of the details of the guns or ammo, since they were all supplied. I was carjacking the driver, approaching from the left front quarter. When he drew I ducked down below the fender; his muzzle was probably about a foot away from mirror.