Airsoft and the Broken Window - Update

[rustymaggot]

i still think your neighbor is mistaken, or is trying to scam you on purpose. it would be unfair to you if you pay for the window because he says a airsoft broke it. an airsoft didnt do it.

I AM WILLING TO RISK MY OWN WINDOW TO PROVE MY POINT! money where my mouth is sort of thing..... i will shoot my own sliding glass door on video with an airsoft if that will help the argument. maybe showing the video to your neighbor will help him see his error.
the promise to pay for the window was gained thru false information.
once it is proven an airsoft cannot break a modern window i feel the judge woud dismiss the case on the grounds that your sons airsoft pellet is incapable of causing the damage. a VERBAL promise to pay for damages you are not at fault for is not a binding contract. different story if the airsoft was capable of doing the damage but its just not able. even then it might have to me a written promise to be enforcible.

a good relationship with your neighbor is worth somthing, but if hes the kind of guy who would make you pay for a window you werent at fault for breaking then i say hes not worth being friends with.


i think the best way to settle the issue is to have your neighbor shoot at your windows from his yard. if he cant reproduce the effect in 10 shots he needs to admit he was wrong.

 

[CajunBass]

I do not like the idea of kids using airsoft guns as toys.

I do like the idea of kids being allowed to gain the respect due to firearms by letting them have .22's.

When I was a kid, we learned respect for firearms by shooting 22's and shotguns.

With toy guns it was anything goes. We actually knew the difference. I suspect most kids today are smart enough to figure it out too.

Sorry Beverly. I don't think your kids or their friends broke the window, but I think you agreed to pay for it. Now you gotta do the right thing and do what you said you'd do.

 

[BeverlyD]

Court? No way! I am not the type of person to get hysterical over something like this to the point where it can't be worked out amicably. I'm a very nice and reasonable person. The parents of my son's friends have all volunteered to chip in on the window. I joined THR to get an education and I've gotten so much more from all of you than I can ever give back. I completely understand my neighbor's point of view. I'm just hoping for the opportunity to share my point of view with him. Fair enough?

 

[TWeatherford]

re: metal bbs fired in a regular airsoft gun.
If you could manage to chamber a smaller metal bb I would be surprised if it made it ten feet. Airsoft bbs are made in multiple weights, from .12 gram to .30. Most guns are made for .12 gram. All of my .12 gram guns have a huge drop in range and accuracy even with a .20 gram bb. A metal bb would very likely just roll out the barrel of an airsoft gun.

 

[mp510]

A traditional BB gun, think Red Ryder, shoots a .177 (4.5mm) steel BB. Airsoft guns are 6mm which is about .24. That is 1.5mm and would not work in a 6mm airsoft gun- it would be like trying to shoot .22 ammo through a .25 Auto. They do make aluminum airsoft BB's. They are designed for certain high end guns, and will fire in the spring guns as well. Daisy actually includes some with their inexpensive K-Mart Beretta 92 styled airsoft gun. They are heavy and produce less velocity than the .12 plastic BB's.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Those Daisy "metallic" BB's are just cheese plated plastic. They're regular old .12 gram BB's otherwise, same as the ones you buy in neon orange or green in the big old jug right next to it on the shelf. I guess they work better on werewolves or something. I packet of them came with one of my guns - I think it was the KWC Deagle. Anyway, they performed the same as .12's but looked cooler. Huzzah.

Real "metallic" airsoft ammo is rarely metal all the way through. Most commonly it's got a metal core (akin to a .177 steel BB) with a plastic shell over it. The stuff is used in high end sniper rifles and usually wieghs an upwards of .43 grams. It's expensive, and I don't know of a single place you can buy it OTC in the 'States. When I need it I have to order the stuff from Hong Kong or Japan. If it's fired out of a low end spring or electric pistol I - assume the original poster's kids were using guns of this type - the heavy ammo has an effective range of about twelve feet. Literally. They'd never be able to hit a second story window, let alone break it.

Putting the ammo consideration on the back burner for a moment, you have to realize that there is no magic way to make an airsoft gun more powerful - Especially a low end springer or electric blowback like you'd buy at Wal Mart. An airsoft gun has a spring in it (even the electric ones - a motor just winds it for you and lets it go) that can impart X total energy on the BB. If you stick a lighter BB in there it will get kicked out of the barrel with more velocity but with the same overall energy. A heavier BB will go slower, but have more mass. Simple ballistics. You still have that same X amount of energy, no matter what.

Most cheap springers are rated at .5 or .6 joules or so. It doesn't matter what you stuff in there as long as it ain't explosive or rocket propelled somehow, it'll never come out with more energy than .5 or .6 joules. Period.

That's like putting heavier tires on your car and expecting it to suddenly have more horsepower. Or loading a 320 grain bullet in your gun and expecting it to have the same velocity with the same powder charge as a 255. Absurd.

 

[Fosbery]

Not to support the argument that an airsoft gun can break a window (as I've said, it's simply impossible) but metal BBs do make a difference. Although the energy is the same, a plastic BB will squash and deform or even split open on impact. A metal one, presumably, would not. Kind of like a tungsten tipped rifle round compared to a hollowpoint pistol round

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Until the metal BB is harder than the window the effect should be minimal. Ever take a swing at a glass bottle with a (high quality, temered!) machete or knife?

Here's some advice: Don't! The glass is brittle, but way harder than the steel. The steel deforms more than the glass does - The glass simply breaks. Unless you're launching quartz at the window, I don't think the hardness of metal-versus-plastic has much to do with it over the sheer number of joules involved (i.e. less than one).

 

[Vitamin G]

Why don't you both just get some calipers measure an airsoft pellet and a BB, then measure the hole in the window and see which it is?

 

[Fosbery]

Yeh, I know, it wouldn't make a difference in the case of a window, but getting shot with a metal BB is a lot more painful than getting shot with a plastic one I'm sure

 

[Zero_DgZ]

It's exactly the same argument. You want me to hit you with a one pound plastic hammer or a one pound metal one? At terrestrial velocities the composition of the article in question doesn't matter as long as their mass and speed are the same and the material is harder than the target - IE, you. You're assigning some sort of mystical property of the metal over the plastic, which has been conditioned into you (I can only imagine) into what I jokingly refer to as the Cartoon Physics Mindset.

That's not an insult, by the way. Most people think the same way.

The only way the impact of the plastic hammer/BB versus the metal one of the same weight, shape, and velocity (within reason) would be if the impact were hard enough to shatter or break one of the two materials.

 

[PaladinX13]

You want me to hit you with a one pound plastic hammer or a one pound metal one?

Plastic, of course, with no other information. Plastic- used in hammers- tends to be less dense than metal- used in hammers- so the plastic hammer would have a larger surface area, spreading out the PSI such that the felt or lasting effect is less than that of the metal hammer EVEN at the same mass.

 

[mp510]

Those Daisy "metallic" BB's are just cheese plated plastic. They're regular old .12 gram BB's otherwise, same as the ones you buy in neon orange or green in the big old jug right next to it on the shelf. I guess they work better on werewolves or something. I packet of them came with one of my guns - I think it was the KWC Deagle. Anyway, they performed the same as .12's but looked cooler. Huzzah.

That's really interesting! I never would have thought that, and have fired all of 2 of them-though I was able to gain repeat use as with the plastic ones. I managed to procure some appropriately sized steel ball berrings, and I ended up having to dismantle the gun to get the 'projectile' out of the barrel (don't try-not fun). I guess the silver does look cooler protruding from a black mag.

I heard that the aluinum ones were hollow before- any truth to that for any of the brands?

 

[Jamie C.]

Why don't you both just get some calipers measure an airsoft pellet and a BB, then measure the hole in the window and see which it is?

This won't work for the simple reason that a low-velocity metal BB will usually bounce off a piece of plate glass, but knock a small "cone" of glass out of the opposite side, leaving only a pinhole where it hit. ( the hole will be quite a bit smaller than the BB )
This is much like what happens when someone is knapping a piece of flint.

Also, if the BB or whatever actually penetrated the glass, then the "evidence" as to what really happened should be laying on the window sill, in between the panes.

The plain fact is, a soft projectile like a soft air BB won't do this.... it'd either bounce off without breaking anything, or it would crack or shatter the window pane entirely. It certainly wouldn't leave a tiny little projectile-sized hole.


J.C.

 

[Fosbery]

If it dosn't matter what you get hit with, then why are rubber bullets, baton rounds, and bean bag rounds less lethal than metal shot fired at the same velocity?

 

[saddenedcitizen]

You have already

committed and agreed to paying for the window and should
stand by that commitment BUT

take the time and effort to PROVE to your neighbor that an
airsoft could not have broken the window OTHERWISE

if this happens again ( and again and again ), regardless of the actual cause, YOU will be 'on the hook' for paying for it again
( and again and again ).

Just something to keep in mind and to justify the effort to prove your child's isn't guilty because
( I'm guessing here but .........)
this is going to happen again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zero_DgZ]

If it dosn't matter what you get hit with, then why are rubber bullets, baton rounds, and bean bag rounds less lethal than metal shot fired at the same velocity?

Because last I checked, they're not. Bean bag rounds are moving hella fast, but not the 1400 FPS or so buckshot is supposed to get up to out of the muzzle of a full barreled gun. Bean bag rounds and baton rounds have physically larger cross sections and do not penetrate. Rubber bullets have ridiculously less mass than lead bullets of the same caliber and are often not moving quite as fast anyway. Less mass always equals less energy, all other things being equal.

The reason lead is used for bullets is not because it is metallic or because it is hard (because in the scheme of things it obviously isn't) but because it's the cheapest densest stuff people can get their hands on. The most mass in the smallest package, excepting going around shooting gold or tungsten at people (which gets expensive).

As I said before, up until the energy level at which the impact can deform or destroy the projectile the composition does not affect the effect (say that ten times fast) as long as the mass and velocity and impacting cross section of the projectile are the same. That's the 'terrestrial velocities' thing for you. When you want to start talking high, firearm like velocities all kinds of funky stuff can happen. I direct you to the age old accounts of pieces of straw getting fired through telephone poles by tornadoes and the like...

 

[mindwip]

Even if she siad she would pay for it, it was under the thinking that her KIDS did do it. IF that turns out to be false there is nothing wrong with going back on it.


+9 shoot your own window, hell let him do it to prove the point.

 

[BeverlyD]

Just heard something today from three different people throughout my neighborhood that may explain why there may be stray pellets flying around. We have a severe rabbit infestation and more than a few people have been trying to limit their landscape damage by trying to bag those wascly wabbits with pellet guns, discreetly shooting out of their bedroom windows. Mercy - I may never go in the backyard again!

 

[geekWithA.45]

Well, if you want to buy peace in the neighborhood by paying him off, I'd hand him a check, along with a printout of our testimonials and videos of us all shooting cheesy old glass with springer airsofts.

THEN you'll learn something if he cashes the check.

 

[Konall]

Don't do it

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we’ve proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
-Kipling​

I agree with the several others who have said that you shouldn't pay for his window if your kid's airsoft couldn't have broken it. If you do it, you'll get to pay for it the next time he (or another neighbor) gets a window shot with a BB gun. And the next. While you already agreed to pay for it, that was based on your neighbor's false accusation.

I like the suggestion of handing him your kid's airsoft gun and inviting him to shoot your double pane 2nd story window with it. Have your checkbook in your hand ready to write him a check for the full amount as you hand him the toy gun. Once he fails to break your window with several shots, give him the raised eyebrow and let him A) admit he was wrong, or B) go away mad.

Oh, and just in case we are all full of crap, be prepared to actually write the check if your window breaks.

 

[orionengnr]

I was going to say, if you pay for his double-pane window, then you now own the window, and you now invite him to shoot "your" new window repeatedly with the Airsoft pistol (preferably the unpunctured pane).

If the pellets bounce off repeatedly, a) you have circumstantial evidence on your side in the future and b) you have "paid it forward" for the window even though you were clearly not liable.

Please let us know how it works out.

 

[mp510]

Beverly, The type of pellet rifles used to shoot a rabbit push a projectile at very high velocity- as much as 1200 FPS. Others may be significantly slower, but are stil much more powerful than an airsoft gun. That is as fast as a .22 rimfire cartrige gun. I bet that's the culprit.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Just heard something today from three different people throughout my neighborhood that may explain why there may be stray pellets flying around. We have a severe rabbit infestation and more than a few people have been trying to limit their landscape damage by trying to bag those wascly wabbits with pellet guns, discreetly shooting out of their bedroom windows. Mercy - I may never go in the backyard again!

Ah-Ha! About the size of an airsoft pellet-check
quiet- check
capable of breaking a window- check
I bet that's what did it. My dad has one that's about 1200fps and shoots pointed "hunting" pellets. Even if a ricochet of the ground it should still have plenty of energy to break a window and leave little or no evidence.
Does the neighbor know about this yet? Make sure he does...then your airsoft vs. window demonstration

 

[Jamie C.]

Just heard something today from three different people throughout my neighborhood that may explain why there may be stray pellets flying around. We have a severe rabbit infestation and more than a few people have been trying to limit their landscape damage by trying to bag those wascly wabbits with pellet guns, discreetly shooting out of their bedroom windows. Mercy - I may never go in the backyard again!

And if any of the rabbit hunters are using a Crossman pump-type air rifle, it's probably .177 cal, and fires either pellets or standard BBs.... The BBs will bounce off hard surfaces and still maintain enough velocity to knock one of those little glass cones out of a window.... I know this from first-hand experience, from back when I was 10 or 11...

And I'm very much betting that at least one of the intrepid hunters is using plain ol' brass BBs... ( 'cause they're really cheap and easy to find )

As to all you folks yelling that she already agreed to pay for the window... seems to me what I read was that she agreed to pay for any damage that her kids had done.
So, not to go all lawyer-ish on ya, but, if her kids really didn't do it then she's not liable. End of story.

Me, I'd get myself one of those battery-powered Air Soft copies of a P90 and hose down my front windows while the neighbor was watching... Either that, or just get out and play "war games" with the kids... ( everybody should be wearing eye protection for this one )

Either way, the neighbor would probably leave you alone afterwards...



J.C.