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AK in 3 gun? Why or why not.

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by 71Commander, Jul 2, 2005.

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  1. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

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    Just curious. Everyone seems to have an AR. What's wrong with the AK. Ammo is cheaper. Just as reliable. Gets the job done.

    Why or why not. :confused:
     
  2. EghtySx

    EghtySx Member

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    Accuracy.
     
  3. MiniZ

    MiniZ Member

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    Mag changes are also a little slower. HOWEVER, there are many people who use an AK variant in 3 gun matches(including our own Correia, who should be along shortly :) )who do outstanding in these matches. A lot of practice can make the AK a fine and fun weapon for 3 gun.
     
  4. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    The reason that ARs are so popular for three-gun competition is that ARs are the easiest (common) rifle to shoot and manipulate fast and accurately. Not to say that you can't shoot an AK fast and accurately, but with the AK you've got a lot of stuff working against you.

    - Chris
     
  5. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    it aint that bad with the AK, just think. You can drop your mags, step on them. You can drop your optics from the rifle, shed them like water and keep on hammering away without loosing zero. The AK is just different, not better or worse.
     
  6. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

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    I'm going out next week-end to try my first 3 gun. I have my IPSC handgun, a mini-14 that has a scope. A FAL. Also with a scope and a AK (Norinco), Mak90. Iron sights only. Have eight mags for all three. The AK and mini are 30 rounders and the FAL's are 20's. Shotgun is either a Remington 870 ot 1100 W/ extension tube.

    I hope i'm all set and ready to make a fool outta myself. But hey!! I shoot IPSC so my reputation preceedes me. :evil:
     
  7. Gary G23

    Gary G23 Member

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    We had some 100yd shots at today's match that would have been very tough with an AK.
     
  8. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

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    I respectfully disagree. :eek:
     
  9. Hoser

    Hoser Moderator

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    We had some 400 yard shots (LaRue and 18 inch steel plates) last weekend that were hard with any iron sights. Really hard with a crappy AK trigger and sights.

    3-Gun with an AK can be done, but why make it harder than it needs to be.
     
  10. Gary G23

    Gary G23 Member

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    I respectfully disagree.

    You've never shot 3 gun before and you're disagreeing with me? Try shooting threat targets that are 2/3 obscured by non-threat targets at 100yds from a small port at the bottom of a wall then report back.
     
  11. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

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    I do shoot IPSC. I disagree about the accuracy factor. The so called poor accuracy of an AK is a internet wifes tale. While a 5.56 may shoot 2-3 MOA. A AK will shoot 3-4".

    The disavatange would be the mag change. Just wonder why they aren't as popular.
     
  12. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    So why aren't there legions of AK shooters clambering for a rule change to allow their AK on the line at high power matches?
     
  13. Quintin Likely

    Quintin Likely Member

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    I wouldn't feel too bad about allowing an AK as a service rifle. Then me and my RRA would stand a decent chance. :p
     
  14. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

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    Not as accurate but still good enough to get on target. Short tube does hurt it, but it isn't a dog. It's plenty good enough for 100 yd shooting. Need accuracy at a longer distance, get a Dragonov.

    As to high power matches, my initial question was why isn't it used more at 3 gun matches. I think it's suited for that.
     
  15. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...why not..." Exactly. 3 gun matches are fun. Shoot whatever you have. The AK's sights aren't that great, but you'll have fun just the same.
     
  16. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    Yeah, you've said that you hadn't shot any 3-gun before. You can't switch guns during a match, except in certain exceptional circumstances (for example, if your gun blows up.)

    Here's the deal - many 3-gun matches involve shooting the rifle out to 400 yards. Many other 3-gun matches have very small targets at closer range. The last club-level match that I shot had MGM auto-poppers (4" diameter impact zone, 14" high) set out at 150 yards. A 3-4MOA rifle is going to give problems there. Another recent match has an MGM flash target out at 250 - that's a 10" plate - and 75-yard head shots on an IPSC classic target. Same problem. These are common match setups and distances.

    If your rifle will only print into 3-4" inches at 100 yards, by the time you add in the human factor, you are going to be having a hard time getting the hits you need, to say nothing of getting them fast.

    I haven't even mentioned administrative handling, trigger quality, and reloading...

    Look, I'm not trying to discourage you here. If you have an AK that you like, then you can and should shoot it. But the AK platform is not as well-suited for 3-gun as the AR, that's just the way it is.

    - Chris
     
  17. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    I probably know more about this topic than most, as I use an AK in 3gun, and do pretty decent. Really good at the state level, but not a lot of national matches under my belt.

    Now first off there is a reason that the AR dominates 3gun. It is easier to shoot faster, with a greater degree of accuracy, and it is easier to reload, primarily because of the bolt hold open.

    Hard core 3gun is not real friendly to cheap AKs. Just like it isn't friendly to cheap ARs. It is pretty intensive as far as the shooting games go, and requires a good rifle to be competitive. Don't get me wrong, when you are starting out, bring whatever you have, and have fun.

    But if you want to do good, you are going to need the more accuracy the better. I don't use a cheap parts AK. I use a Vepr, which is a sub 2MOA gun. I've also replaced the buckhorn sights with Krebs dustcover peep sights. The more accuracy you can squeeze out of your gun the better.

    Mag changes can be just as fast, but it take A LOT more practice. And that is only if you plan ahead and never shoot it dry. If you have to work the bolt, your reload will be a ton slower. The rock and lock can be done very quickly, but you need to practice more to be consistent and fast with it.

    The safety is harder to use, unless you have mutant gorilla length fingers, then it is actually faster. (I index my trigger finger on the safety, at the buzzer that thing comes off as my finger moves to the trigger).

    So an AK can compete (at least at the state level) but you need a really good AK, and you need to practice the heck out of it. For most shooters they are going to go farther with an AR variant. We had a rifle only match a few months ago. All 3gun style shooting, but all rifle. Ranges from CQB to 200 yards. I took 2nd overall, and 1st iron sights, and this was in a field of 50 shooters, many of whom are very very good. But as was pointed out by the 1st place gun ( ;) who beat me like a red headed step child) if the ranges had been increased then I would have lost to more optics shooters, and if there had been more mag changes I probably would have lagged a bit more also.

    For the 400 yard shots, that is why I just bought a .223 Vepr. :D Keep in mind that your scope mounting options with an AK are more limited than a flat top AR if you decide to eventually run optics.
     
  18. john l

    john l Member

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    I shoot my Bulgarian AK in local 3 gun about once or twice a year. I take my AK camping with me and it is a way to stay "in tune" with the gun. I really don't want to take my $1600 AR with all the bling out to the mountains.

    That said, I think of your original question, why or why not, and the only semi-original answer I have is that I hope a potential competitor would come out to a 3 gun with an AK and shoot and LEARN A LOT than stay home and miss out because he/she thinks that an AK isn't good enough.

    There is a basic physics argument that with a 122 gr AK bullet, you are going to have considerable more barrel jump and recoil than a 55 gr AR bullet, and that can contribute to a overall minus when considering gear for 3 gun. HOWEVER, for real-life self defense, I will take the AK bullet over a 62 gr AR bullet or even the 77 gr bullets. The US Military thinks so too, as their nifty new round is basically an -accurate- AK-weight round. But 3 gun is a game, and a skilled AR shooter with ( as some deride the 55 gr round ) a light bullet, is no one to be trifled with if the shiite hits the fan.

    Lastly, I think the time it takes to reload an AK compared to an AR isn't really worth noting. In other words, AK reload speed isn't what will make you come in 2nd place over 1st.

    Oh yeah, did you know that Correia is the only one in the whole world with a sub 2 moa AK? Isn't that cool? I'm still waiting to see the 200 yd bullseyes with 2 inch groups.
    John L
     
  19. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

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    Thanks Correia and john l. I just asked a simple question and some would have me drawn and quartered. Maybe i'll use my mini-14. :neener:
     
  20. Wakal

    Wakal Member

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    Just because some folks get mutant AK's that will actually group instead of pattern is no reason to get snippy... :neener:

    On the safety thing: take your handy MIG welder and attach half a 5/8" washer to the point where your trigger finger hits the safety. File off most of the little dimple on the back of the safety (the dimple that puts the cute scratch in the receiver ;) ), smooth, polish a bit, and paint. You can skip the last two steps (I do on my own guns, but try to build things a bit more...pretty....for my wife or customers).

    If my wife's little trigger finger (and that modification) can make her Saiga-20 safety work, then pretty much anyone with bigger hands than (say) Kenny Baker should be fine :)

    I've been meaning to put a proper compensator on a AK type and set it up the same as my Saiga shotguns, just for commonality of controls, but have not had a chance yet.



    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2005
  21. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    One of our local 3Gun/rifle matches does an "AR vs AK" match once a year. 4 rifle stages, 0-400 yards. Shoot them with your AR15 with iron sights first, then shoot the match again with your AK. So we have the exact same match shot by the same person with an AR and then an AK. No optics.

    The scores broke down like this: on the "CQB" stage, there was basically no difference in scores. The AK is easy to drive fast, close. On the long range stages (200-400 yards), the AK scores suffered a lot, mainly due to totally inadequate iron sights, and the poor trigger didn't help.

    -z
     
  22. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    John, 2 at 100. 5 is the best I've ever done at 200. Heck dude you were with me one day that I did a 2 inch group at WSA. I used one of your shoot N see targets. I think I still have it in the basement somewhere. Wakal, he's just snippy because we shoot together. :)

    By the way, how did you like the Thai place?
     
  23. Wakal

    Wakal Member

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    LOL...figured it was something like that :)

    Which Thai place? So much good food, so...big of a belly to eat it all...or something :scrutiny:



    Alex
     
  24. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    Sorry, meant John. He was going to my favorite Thai place. Their Thai Hot is so hot, it can melt the jelly out of your eyes. :D
     
  25. Wakal

    Wakal Member

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    Down here in Texas, I regularly eat some really hot food. Tex-Mex...hell, I eat out twice a day, every day, usually at Mexican or Tex/Mex places. One of the "other" good things about the NM 3-Gun Championship is the obligatory trip to a really hot Mexican (New Mexico/Mex?) restaraunt..."green chili" ribs hot enough to make your eyebrows sweat. And the most amazingly hot food I've ever had has been...at Thai restaraunts. I'm not much for peanut and sprout pizza :barf: , but man, they can cook some hot stuff over rice :what:

    "...so hot, it can melt the jelly out of your eyes." :D :D :D



    Alex
     
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