Why AR's more accurate than AK's?
- Thread starter natural marksman
- Start date
- Status
Travis Bickle
member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 476
Closer tolerances and direct gas impingement. Unfortunately, these are the same things that make the AR less reliable than the AK.
I don't think that caliber has much to do with it, since there are AKs chambered for .223 and the AR will outshoot even those (when it's not jammed, that is.)
Poor East Texan
Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 366
I always figured it is because there were going to be 20 - 40 Soviets with AKs shooting at every 1 US soldier with an AR.
Accuracy is king when numbers are against you.
That said my SKS (Norinco) shoots good enough to be a man stopper.
Accuracy is king when numbers are against you.
That said my SKS (Norinco) shoots good enough to be a man stopper.
d2wing
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,415
Of the AR's and AK types I've owned and shot there is no comparision in accuracy. But I know the same people are going to post the same stuff so
there is no point in looking at this again check the archives. Same o,same o.
dead horse. AR's are much more accurate as stated previous for the reason already mentioned. I have both I'd like to own more of both but don't have time to shoot all the guns I have.
there is no point in looking at this again check the archives. Same o,same o.
dead horse. AR's are much more accurate as stated previous for the reason already mentioned. I have both I'd like to own more of both but don't have time to shoot all the guns I have.
I think that it does mainly come down to the barrel harmonics. With the AK, you have the gas cylinder attached to the top, which screws with your harmonics and gives more variance.
Also AK's groupings do open up significantly with barrel temperature. Shooting my AK, when its nice and cold out, (sub 40 degrees) I can easily put 20 shots in a 4"x4" square while rapid firing at 100 yards. Do the same when its say 80 degrees out, and after 5 shots I'm patterning. Bear in mind as far as rifle shooting I'd say I'm in the lower 25% of shooters out there, so I'd say those groups are more my fault then the rifle's.
Also AK's groupings do open up significantly with barrel temperature. Shooting my AK, when its nice and cold out, (sub 40 degrees) I can easily put 20 shots in a 4"x4" square while rapid firing at 100 yards. Do the same when its say 80 degrees out, and after 5 shots I'm patterning. Bear in mind as far as rifle shooting I'd say I'm in the lower 25% of shooters out there, so I'd say those groups are more my fault then the rifle's.
wyocarp
Member
Some one not gut shooting an animal dosn't have anything to do with an AK unless you are taking 500 yard shots. You would have to hunt within your abilities and the range of the gun, but they take deer very nicely from my experience.
bikertrash63
Member
I guess I have milled receiver AK47 built in OK by the firing line, I would put it's accuracy against the Colt HBAR sporter I had any day, of course I never thought the sights on an AR were worth much. As far as iron sights go, my HK G3/91 clone's sights are better then either of the other rifles. I have a RRA flat top with a bull barrel that is quite accurite but it should be, the rifle and scope on it cost almost 3 times as much as my AK did. At the present I am working on building a 6.5 Grendel on a Bushmaster lower, using a 24" barrel with 1 in 9 twist and a recoil brake, I am hoping for an accurite rifle at longer ranges, when it gets done I will post some info and range stats.
With the potential shot distances where I live, I wouldn't even consider the AK for hunting varmints, let alone deer. The AR is also questionable for deer due to the .223.
IMO, both of these rifles should be considered primarily for SD or plinking. They are both excellent for that. After these two goals, the AR has a distinct edge in it's flexibility for competition and varmint hunting, depending on configuration.
I have shot both, but own an AR. I like the bigger round of the AK, but it lacks the accuracy, flat trajectory, and range that I need. Couple those with the modularity of the AR and it was an easy choice for me.
BTW, if I am looking for an accurate gun with similar ballistics to an AK, I am selecting a 30-30 lever action. Roughly the same hunting range and power, but way more accurate by design. Also, lever actions are just plain cool.
IMO, both of these rifles should be considered primarily for SD or plinking. They are both excellent for that. After these two goals, the AR has a distinct edge in it's flexibility for competition and varmint hunting, depending on configuration.
I have shot both, but own an AR. I like the bigger round of the AK, but it lacks the accuracy, flat trajectory, and range that I need. Couple those with the modularity of the AR and it was an easy choice for me.
BTW, if I am looking for an accurate gun with similar ballistics to an AK, I am selecting a 30-30 lever action. Roughly the same hunting range and power, but way more accurate by design. Also, lever actions are just plain cool.
bikertrash63
Member
I will have to go along with the 30-30 comment, I love my Marlin.
R.W.Dale
Member
or an AR chambered for 7.62x39mm, truly the best of both worlds.
see the signatures
remember how when you were a young kid, you could wiggle your pencil real fast and be like "look! My pencil magically turned to rubber!"
what you are seeing in the AK is the same effect. The recoil and cycling happens at less than the blink of an eye before reverting back to its base i.e. where you were holding/aiming it. That quick back-and-forth action at such a speed is what causes it to 'flex'. You can see the same thing faintly in the AR/M16 design, but the lower recoil and the 14 inches of tube for the handguard hide it much better.
"It is not the barrel that flexes, but it is YOU who flexes. Until you realize...there is no flexing..."
The Deer Hunter
Member
Across the street =D
wyocarp
Member
You must need to make 400+ yard shots.
I thought that until I bought one. I'd rather shoot the AK.
Yeah. Good luck with that.
Now, I am confused. RP88, the video was in slow motion - not real time speed.
Wouldn't a pencil being flipped real fast, but slowed down by slow motion photography show it was, in fact, not bending as it appeared at real time?
So, to me, it still appears that the AK barrel was actually bending a little bit, I guess due to the mechanism on top, being driven by backward by gases to cycle the rifle.
Hack
Wouldn't a pencil being flipped real fast, but slowed down by slow motion photography show it was, in fact, not bending as it appeared at real time?
So, to me, it still appears that the AK barrel was actually bending a little bit, I guess due to the mechanism on top, being driven by backward by gases to cycle the rifle.
Hack
FlyinBryan
Member
Wouldn't a pencil being flipped real fast, but slowed down by slow motion photography show it was, in fact, not bending as it appeared at real time?
i think thats correct.
the ak barrel is flexing.
ive seen that this was caused by the unusually large and non-centered bolt, as well as the inertia of the piston.
the operating parts of an ar are much more on axis of the bore, and much more balanced on that axis.
i think thats correct.
the ak barrel is flexing.
ive seen that this was caused by the unusually large and non-centered bolt, as well as the inertia of the piston.
the operating parts of an ar are much more on axis of the bore, and much more balanced on that axis.
d2wing
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,415
When I was shot at by AK's I was glad I had an AR, better yet of course is when I had an M60. As far as I'm concerned I am glad it's the bad side that shot those cheap inaccurate Ak's and we had M16's. Other combat vets may have different opinions depending on thier experience, but no one I know personally would have rather had an AK. I also agree with the 30-30 lever action being a superior hunting rifle over an AK. In combat I'd chose an AK over the 30-30. The ballistics are similar but the 30-30 is lighter shorter and handles better. I own and have hunted with all of them. I think it is irresponsible to shoot at a deer over one hundred yards with an AK, and foolish to shoot over that range at a guy armed with a AR. Done that. You can go back to dreaming that you know anything now.
HeavenlySword
Member
All objects flex under stress. There are videos in slow mo of your cellphone flexing as it hits the floor or the incredible amount of motion in a .50BMG rifle.
If the flex is even, and is allowed to go through its harmonics, it won't affect the accuracy as much as if the harmonics of the barrel were bad
If the flex is even, and is allowed to go through its harmonics, it won't affect the accuracy as much as if the harmonics of the barrel were bad
HisDivineShadow
Member
The gas piston system does affect accuracy because the inertia of that mass moving around during cycling is usually a factor in muzzle rise from recoil. There are no such thing in the AR so it just pushed backwards and has less rise. This is important for follow up shots.
I'm not a firearms designer, but from what I understand these are some of the issues involved.
AK Vs. M-16
- Quality of ammunition.
- Stability of the bullet in flight and amount of drop involved at greater distances (the .223 is just flatter shooting).
- The bolt locks into the barrel on the AR/M-16 (rather than the receiver).
- Better trigger (lighter and without as much creep) on the AR when compared to the AK.
- Looser tolerances on the AK when compared with the AR-15/M-16 (this might give the AK an edge when we're talking about reliability and the AK does have a well deserved reputation for being able to keep on shooting even when incredibly dirty and abused), but it hurts it accuracy wise.
- The M16 does not use a piston; gas blows back through a very small tube straight onto the bolt carrier. This eliminates the movement of the piston inside the rifle increases accuracy.
AK Vs. M-16
OP
OP
natural marksman
Member
I'm familiar with how the direct gas impingment system works in AR's. Adding a piston to the mix would make it more reliable as the gas wouldn't contact the inside of the reciever and so you wouldn't have to clean that part as much...
...What if you put in a short-stroke piston? Would it be the same in accurace as the direct impingment system?
...What if you put in a short-stroke piston? Would it be the same in accurace as the direct impingment system?
Interesting...
Never been to a 3 Gun match, I take it?
Hint: Lots of AK variants are showing up there, competing directly against their AR stablemates. We are blessed here at THR to have one of the moderators who does that on a regular basis, and does quite well, I might add.
As for accuracy of the cartridge, the popular PPC family of benchrest cartridges was derived from the "lowly" 7.62x39 round. Ask anybody who fires the 7.62x39 in other platforms, and you'll find that it has excellent accuracy. Mr. Krochus has plenty of target pictures here on THR demonstrating that.
Now, how many MOA do you need, really?
I have a Bulgarian SLR-95 that's a 2MOA gun. It won't shoot the testicles off of a gnat at 400 yards, but I wonder if anybody here has viewed Uncle Sam's acceptance standards for the issued M16 rifles and SS109 ammo lately?
I've got a freezer full of venison, and not once did the deer tell me, "You bastard! You shot me with a sidefolder SAR-1! You can't do that!"
That SAR-1 is a 2.5-3.0 MOA rifle, with my 125gr soft point handloads. Not much different than the vaunted .30-30 levergun, either in ballistics or accuracy. Some Fudds would argue the latter is more suitable for the whitetail woods, but I've got proof to the contrary.
Granted, I've got 1000 yard rifles, I've got 100 yard rifles, and I've got all sorts of rifles that work fine for ranges in between. Bottom line? At typical combat ranges, the AK works exactly as it was intended. Let's not lose sight of that.
And just to rub it in to Krochus, I hated my M16s during my 20+ year military career. I experienced several jams in my yearly qualifications, and my own Colt Competition HBAR absolutely chokes after about 200 rounds fired. It will function again only after a complete teardown and cleaning. It may be anecdotal, but I have little confidence in it as anything other than a range toy. That's why my bedside gun is the sidefolder SAR-1. It may not be a benchrest bughole rifle, but it'll go "bang" when I pull the trigger.
Never been to a 3 Gun match, I take it?
Hint: Lots of AK variants are showing up there, competing directly against their AR stablemates. We are blessed here at THR to have one of the moderators who does that on a regular basis, and does quite well, I might add.
As for accuracy of the cartridge, the popular PPC family of benchrest cartridges was derived from the "lowly" 7.62x39 round. Ask anybody who fires the 7.62x39 in other platforms, and you'll find that it has excellent accuracy. Mr. Krochus has plenty of target pictures here on THR demonstrating that.
Now, how many MOA do you need, really?
I have a Bulgarian SLR-95 that's a 2MOA gun. It won't shoot the testicles off of a gnat at 400 yards, but I wonder if anybody here has viewed Uncle Sam's acceptance standards for the issued M16 rifles and SS109 ammo lately?
I've got a freezer full of venison, and not once did the deer tell me, "You bastard! You shot me with a sidefolder SAR-1! You can't do that!"
That SAR-1 is a 2.5-3.0 MOA rifle, with my 125gr soft point handloads. Not much different than the vaunted .30-30 levergun, either in ballistics or accuracy. Some Fudds would argue the latter is more suitable for the whitetail woods, but I've got proof to the contrary.
Granted, I've got 1000 yard rifles, I've got 100 yard rifles, and I've got all sorts of rifles that work fine for ranges in between. Bottom line? At typical combat ranges, the AK works exactly as it was intended. Let's not lose sight of that.
And just to rub it in to Krochus, I hated my M16s during my 20+ year military career. I experienced several jams in my yearly qualifications, and my own Colt Competition HBAR absolutely chokes after about 200 rounds fired. It will function again only after a complete teardown and cleaning. It may be anecdotal, but I have little confidence in it as anything other than a range toy. That's why my bedside gun is the sidefolder SAR-1. It may not be a benchrest bughole rifle, but it'll go "bang" when I pull the trigger.
Paladin_Hammer
Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2008
- Messages
- 137
AK's were not built with any accuracy better than 6 inches at 100 yards in mind. It's enough to kill someone or something, given it's bullet. No aiming.
America took a different approach, and adopted the AR-15 (M16) because it could hit a 2 inch dot at 100 yards every time. This means that, although you aim, you hit what you shoot. Period.
America took a different approach, and adopted the AR-15 (M16) because it could hit a 2 inch dot at 100 yards every time. This means that, although you aim, you hit what you shoot. Period.
- Status
