AL cop dies when Beretta jams
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Mulliga
Member
Very sad story.
The killer in question is a cold-blooded psycho (wife beater, shot a man at point-blank range, and then waited for the cops to come?). Thankfully, it looks like they have plenty of evidence, so life in prison or lethal injection for him.
Walking backwards in a gun fight is generally a BAD idea.
The killer in question is a cold-blooded psycho (wife beater, shot a man at point-blank range, and then waited for the cops to come?). Thankfully, it looks like they have plenty of evidence, so life in prison or lethal injection for him.
Walking backwards in a gun fight is generally a BAD idea.
bobhaverford
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- 138
Derby FALs said:
Bingo! How did they establish that the gun was jammed?
MNgoldenbear
Member
Yup. Spray & pray is no substitute for rapid, accurate fire. Under stress, this is difficult to achieve, but absolutely necessary. An acquaintance was patrolling in CA and made a stop for a possible DUI. The other officer (happened to be riding double at the time -- that agency did not normally ride with partners then) was dealing with the driver while this officer ordered the passenger out. The passenger finally got out, seemed drunk, and wouldn't turn to face them. When he did, he quickly turned and emptied a 5-shot snubby. The officer dove behind his vehicle and he and his parter came up firing. They hit the passenger with 11 of 14 total rounds, mostly well-centered. My acquaintance had a bullet hole in one shirt sleeve, and a lead line across his back. Sorry that it didn't turn out as well for the officer in AL. Met good and bad cops, but it's always sad when a person who chose to serve is taken.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
bobhaverford said:
"Golden's Beretta 9mm semiautomatic pistol was still loaded with nine of its original 15 rounds when investigators found it, Gray said, and one bullet had not fed properly into the firing chamber. "
RomanKnight
Member
IF I were in any position of authority in AL, I'd fire everyone who had anything to do with the training for that officer. Or complete lack of basic training. How to clear a malfunction is -or should be- mandatory and constant training, for any firearms user. Fire and movement. Transition to backup weapon. And so on. All of you are right in what went wrong. I'd say that of training killed him.
George Hill
Member
When your time is up, it's up. If it wasn't this, a traffic accident could have punched his ticket.
Just thinking that would work with this "suspect" too.
"Well the suspect was locked in the back of the patrol car when the paddywagon raced onto the scene and his brakes failed... luckily the officer was not in the patrol car at the time."
"So how did the paddywagon hit the patrol car seven times?"
"Its a mystery, sir."
Just thinking that would work with this "suspect" too.
"Well the suspect was locked in the back of the patrol car when the paddywagon raced onto the scene and his brakes failed... luckily the officer was not in the patrol car at the time."
"So how did the paddywagon hit the patrol car seven times?"
"Its a mystery, sir."
Pilgrim
Member
Having been a police firearms instructor, I can say there is only so much an instructor can accomplish in the time alotted to firearms training. My former department only funded two hours training every two months. One hour was spent just getting to and from the range. That left one hour to exercise skills in the pistol, shotgun, and carbine. That is a lot of material to cover in one hour.
For most of the people on this forum, one hour is just getting warmed up at the range. But the reality of police firearms training is the need and standards of training to meet that need were set by people who first got their police firearms training twenty-five to thirty years ago. Back then once a year firearms qualification was the norm.
Some day the training standards we take for granted here will work their way upwards in police administration circles.
Pilgrim
losangeles
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- Oct 19, 2005
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- 360
So sad.
NineseveN
member
Let's all back up a moment here. The copper got off 6 shots but apparently took 2 and went down. If the cop had a wheelgun, well, he'd have an empty revolver and still be dead. Shot placement, caliber and luck all count as much as reliability. With that being said:
I was never a fan of the 92FS design, that un-housed barrel scares the bejezus out of me. You never know what can creep in there and cause just enough friction on the slide, slow down the momentum and jam the gun. I'm not saying this is what happened or that it happens often or even at all, it's just something that always stuck out to me.
Things like that catch my attention. The fact that I carry my USP cocked and locked, I noticed that lint and other debris like to settle into the hammer channel. I clean that with a Q-tip once per day because it seems to me that debris is just not a good idea. But what do I know?
Revolvers can fail. Very rarely, but they can. I don't think the failure killed this cop necessarily, the 6 shots that didn't put the BG down had more to do with it I think.
To those advocating that this is a good reason to carry a revolver instead of an automatic, I disagree. That's a personal choice. There are only so many variables you can isolate. There is always a chance that the round in your revolver is defective. Many rounds leave the factories every year with some type of defect, many of them can not be discerned with the naked eye...you have to shoot them to find out.
Find the biggest caliber you can shoot effectively.
Train. Train. Train.
Cary a firearm of good quality that you know works.
Train. Train. Train.
Perform routine maintenance on your firearm (inspection and cleaning).
Train. Train. Train.
Regardless, sad thing it is.
I was never a fan of the 92FS design, that un-housed barrel scares the bejezus out of me. You never know what can creep in there and cause just enough friction on the slide, slow down the momentum and jam the gun. I'm not saying this is what happened or that it happens often or even at all, it's just something that always stuck out to me.
Things like that catch my attention. The fact that I carry my USP cocked and locked, I noticed that lint and other debris like to settle into the hammer channel. I clean that with a Q-tip once per day because it seems to me that debris is just not a good idea. But what do I know?
Revolvers can fail. Very rarely, but they can. I don't think the failure killed this cop necessarily, the 6 shots that didn't put the BG down had more to do with it I think.
To those advocating that this is a good reason to carry a revolver instead of an automatic, I disagree. That's a personal choice. There are only so many variables you can isolate. There is always a chance that the round in your revolver is defective. Many rounds leave the factories every year with some type of defect, many of them can not be discerned with the naked eye...you have to shoot them to find out.
Find the biggest caliber you can shoot effectively.
Train. Train. Train.
Cary a firearm of good quality that you know works.
Train. Train. Train.
Perform routine maintenance on your firearm (inspection and cleaning).
Train. Train. Train.
Regardless, sad thing it is.
Too Many Choices!?
Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 763
Horrible story,
My Glock hasn't jammed(yet
)...
At any distance beyond contact range(read as: bore to body, or spittin distance), aimed fire is better than point fire...
My Glock hasn't jammed(yet
)...At any distance beyond contact range(read as: bore to body, or spittin distance), aimed fire is better than point fire...
Brian41
Member
Life in prison?????
so now that this illegal alien has murdered a police officer, who was an american citizen, in cold blood a court could decide to give him a life in prison where the tax payers dollars from a country where he is not even a legal resident can pay for his (hopefully) final days on earth. That doen't seem like justice to me... I hope he gets lethal injection, it seems the only choice to me.
that or he could be laid on the ground and shot in the face a few times.
so now that this illegal alien has murdered a police officer, who was an american citizen, in cold blood a court could decide to give him a life in prison where the tax payers dollars from a country where he is not even a legal resident can pay for his (hopefully) final days on earth. That doen't seem like justice to me... I hope he gets lethal injection, it seems the only choice to me.
that or he could be laid on the ground and shot in the face a few times.
Realistic practice...agreed
I frequently wait for the range to slow down, then I get to have fun...all alone! Steel rebounding targets, alternate distances...obsticles to hide behind, and ALL 15 lanes, wide open floor for me to practice what, where how I choose. Remember the posts here about the 3-second rule? NOT! The previosu post about clear jams on the run...wow! Yes, and try it...it's difficult!
Anyone here besides me ever use multiple (3) televisions with BG videos playing as targeting multiple BGs? Try it. It adds a sense of challenge. The instructor for my CCW talked of that, and of course encourages people to parctice in their own homes with airsoft firearms. They make some high-end, all steel models that are true to fit and even cycle the slide. Pricy, yes. Good practice at home when the local range owner/manager is 3-seconds anal? Yeap.
It's a shame that the good cops die so young. I hope and literally pray that his family will be able to find peace of mind. Any others who believe in the power of prayer, I am sure the family would sense the support.
Doc2005
I frequently wait for the range to slow down, then I get to have fun...all alone! Steel rebounding targets, alternate distances...obsticles to hide behind, and ALL 15 lanes, wide open floor for me to practice what, where how I choose. Remember the posts here about the 3-second rule? NOT! The previosu post about clear jams on the run...wow! Yes, and try it...it's difficult!
Anyone here besides me ever use multiple (3) televisions with BG videos playing as targeting multiple BGs? Try it. It adds a sense of challenge. The instructor for my CCW talked of that, and of course encourages people to parctice in their own homes with airsoft firearms. They make some high-end, all steel models that are true to fit and even cycle the slide. Pricy, yes. Good practice at home when the local range owner/manager is 3-seconds anal? Yeap.
It's a shame that the good cops die so young. I hope and literally pray that his family will be able to find peace of mind. Any others who believe in the power of prayer, I am sure the family would sense the support.
Doc2005
C96
Member
It's really hard to practice shooting while someone is trying to kill you.
Playing games with guns is fun, but it ain't the same. :banghead:
This incident happened Aug 29th and has been dixcussed a bit before.
IIRC the officer was hit in the left shoulder early in the incident, makes
clearing a bitch if true.
MMQB'ing gunfights is a bit precarious when making judgements re: errors made.
allan
Playing games with guns is fun, but it ain't the same. :banghead:
This incident happened Aug 29th and has been dixcussed a bit before.
IIRC the officer was hit in the left shoulder early in the incident, makes
clearing a bitch if true.
MMQB'ing gunfights is a bit precarious when making judgements re: errors made.
allan
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
C96 said:
All the more reason to practice so you don't even think about what to do. I believe I am going to get to the range more often, even if gas is so high.
ny32182
Member
This post is not a bash on cops, I promise. However, I've recently become aware through first hand experience just how lacking police firearms training can be. A former roommate of mine who just completed NJSP school (supposedly one of the most rigorous in the nation) and has been a NJ state patrol officer for a few weeks now came down here for a visit this past weekend.
He's just been through the academy... his skills should be as good as they are going to get, right? He's fresh off his training? Wrong. He brought his off duty/backup G26 with him, and we went to the range. He didn't shoot with any more slowfire accuracy than he did before he left for training, which is to say, he doesn't hit much. He said he's only fired a total of 300 rounds through that gun (which is issued and owned by the NJSP). Still uses the popular arched back stance. He was riding the slide catch with his thumb and wondering why it wasn't locking open. Then he had a stovepipe in the middle of his last mag before we were out of ammo. He said he has NEVER cleaned the Glock. I cleaned it for him before he left.
I really, really hope he is better with his duty P228. He's a good friend of mine... I just wish he would take his shooting skill a little more seriously considering his profession. I'd like to schedule his next visit on an IDPA weekend. From the sound of it, that would be better for him than what he did in the academy.
He's just been through the academy... his skills should be as good as they are going to get, right? He's fresh off his training? Wrong. He brought his off duty/backup G26 with him, and we went to the range. He didn't shoot with any more slowfire accuracy than he did before he left for training, which is to say, he doesn't hit much. He said he's only fired a total of 300 rounds through that gun (which is issued and owned by the NJSP). Still uses the popular arched back stance. He was riding the slide catch with his thumb and wondering why it wasn't locking open. Then he had a stovepipe in the middle of his last mag before we were out of ammo. He said he has NEVER cleaned the Glock. I cleaned it for him before he left.
I really, really hope he is better with his duty P228. He's a good friend of mine... I just wish he would take his shooting skill a little more seriously considering his profession. I'd like to schedule his next visit on an IDPA weekend. From the sound of it, that would be better for him than what he did in the academy.
Pilgrim
Member
I'm sure you will find that your friend is more skilled at finding twenty things wrong and 'unsafe' with your motor vehicle.
Pilgrim
Pilgrim
CAS700850
Member
A couple of thoughts here...
First, I have a Beretta 92FS. I was issued one in the Army. I personally have never seen one jam. Doesn't meanthey don't, but I believe that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design. Maybe his support hand had contact with the slide. Maybe the jammed round was out of spec size-wise (A local agency had this problem with training reloads, which almost led to them scrapping their issue Glock 22's until the problem was discovered). Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
Second, all firearms training officers I know stress moving while returning fire. A moving target is harder to hit. Lateral movement is better, but backing away sure beats standing still. PLus, it's instinctive to try to get away from danger.
Third, if his Beretta jammed, for whatever reason, it sounds like this officer didn't have time for a tap-rack-bang drill, much less time togo for a BUG. It was likely over in seconds. He didn't have a chance. You cannot blame the training officers for not stressing malfunction drills.
Fourth, a revolver wouldn't have made any difference here. Assuming the Beretta was fully loaded, the officer fired six rounds before the jam. So, he would have been holding an empty revolver instead of a jammed auto when he was murdered.
Fifth, it appears the bad guy took no hits. Yet another example of why accuracy beats speed. Which means practice, practice, practice.
Sixth. Too many officers shoot only during mandatory training. See Number 5 above.
First, I have a Beretta 92FS. I was issued one in the Army. I personally have never seen one jam. Doesn't meanthey don't, but I believe that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design. Maybe his support hand had contact with the slide. Maybe the jammed round was out of spec size-wise (A local agency had this problem with training reloads, which almost led to them scrapping their issue Glock 22's until the problem was discovered). Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
Second, all firearms training officers I know stress moving while returning fire. A moving target is harder to hit. Lateral movement is better, but backing away sure beats standing still. PLus, it's instinctive to try to get away from danger.
Third, if his Beretta jammed, for whatever reason, it sounds like this officer didn't have time for a tap-rack-bang drill, much less time togo for a BUG. It was likely over in seconds. He didn't have a chance. You cannot blame the training officers for not stressing malfunction drills.
Fourth, a revolver wouldn't have made any difference here. Assuming the Beretta was fully loaded, the officer fired six rounds before the jam. So, he would have been holding an empty revolver instead of a jammed auto when he was murdered.
Fifth, it appears the bad guy took no hits. Yet another example of why accuracy beats speed. Which means practice, practice, practice.
Sixth. Too many officers shoot only during mandatory training. See Number 5 above.
stevelyn
Member
landon74 said:
Atributted to Wyatt Earp.............lived to a ripe old age.............80..... IIRC.
cracked butt
Member
TAP RACK BANG must have been replaced by *panic* OH Jeez I give up!
A couple of people on this site gave me a lot of grief a few weeks ago when I suggested that a competitive shooter would or could perform better in many situations than a cop with minimal training.
This is a perfect example. The first time a competitive shooter has a malfunction, they usually freeze up and stare at the target or pistol with a deer in the headlights look on their face. A competitor with a bit more experience will slam the mag, rack the pistol and keep going- if that fails, mag is ejected, slide is racked like hell a couple of times, another mag is slammed in and firing continues. I've seen a lot of people run through the entire process almost unconsciously faster than a newby could even load a pistol.
Not to make light of this man's death, but with a little more time spent on training, there's be a very high probability that he'd still be breathing.
A couple of people on this site gave me a lot of grief a few weeks ago when I suggested that a competitive shooter would or could perform better in many situations than a cop with minimal training.
This is a perfect example. The first time a competitive shooter has a malfunction, they usually freeze up and stare at the target or pistol with a deer in the headlights look on their face. A competitor with a bit more experience will slam the mag, rack the pistol and keep going- if that fails, mag is ejected, slide is racked like hell a couple of times, another mag is slammed in and firing continues. I've seen a lot of people run through the entire process almost unconsciously faster than a newby could even load a pistol.
Not to make light of this man's death, but with a little more time spent on training, there's be a very high probability that he'd still be breathing.
AnthonyRSS
Member
Stories I've heard say that Golden got shot at as soon as he got out of his car.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Good point. He had already fired 6 or 7 rounds when the gun jammed...
Zak Smith said:
couldn't understand that either. did the leo experience a malfunction and decide to throw up his hands and surrender? doesn't make sense. couldn't tell if he was on duty or not, but where's his backup weapon? this could have been avoided.
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