Alcohol and guns... Very Serious

[Biker]

No offense, Vern, but do you have Miss Cleo moments? When you *know* you won't be attacked? You *know* you won't be required to operate a motor vehicle in case, oh, I dunno, your kid gets bit by a rattler or your wife falls down and cuts herself or breaks something?

Biker

 

[Vern Humphrey]

No offense, Vern, but do you have Miss Cleo moments? When you *know* you won't be attacked? You *know* you won't be required to operate a motor vehicle in case, oh, I dunno, your kid gets bit by a rattler or your wife falls down and cuts herself or breaks something?

No offense, Biker, but do you have Miss Cleo moments? When you *know* you won't be attacked? You *know* you won't be required to operate a motor vehicle in case, oh, I dunno, your kid gets bit by a rattler or your wife falls down and cuts herself or breaks something?

If you don't, don't get "loaded."

As I said, no offense -- that's my message. You're no use to your snakebit kid if you can't see straight, nor to your wife if you run over the fireplug while backing out to take her to the hospital.

 

[Biker]

Vern...

Well then, I guess I'll have to ask you to define "loaded". This seems to be an 'either or' decision in the context you're describing.

Biker

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Well then, I guess I'll have to ask you to define "loaded". This seems to be an 'either or' decision in the context you're describing.

I think you laid it out pretty well:

When you *know* you won't be attacked? You *know* you won't be required to operate a motor vehicle in case, oh, I dunno, your kid gets bit by a rattler or your wife falls down and cuts herself or breaks something?

How much risk to your wife and kids are you willing to tolerate?

Now, if you're willing to get legally drunk and hope nothing will happen to your family that requires you to be in top form, then that's your choice.

 

[tinygnat219]

Firearms and alcohol don't mix while using, or consuming either. If one has alcohol in the home, like 95% of the country does, don't drink while loading / reloading, etc. If you are drinking with the guys/gals/pets, leave your gun at home locked up. If you are at a bar / restaurant that serves alcohol and it's legal for you to be there with a gun, don't drink anything but water or soda. Common sense.

 

[Biker]

Vern...

"Legally drunk" means .08 BAC in my state or about three beers. Three brews might as well be three sodas to me. Your definition doesn't work in my - and many other's - case. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am trying to pin you down.
Try again?

Biker

 

[busy_squirrel]

How much risk to your wife and kids are you willing to tolerate?

Now, if you're willing to get legally drunk and hope nothing will happen to your family that requires you to be in top form, then that's your choice.

Well, honestly, some risk I am willing to tolerate. Everyone has to accept some risk sometimes. You do sleep don't you? You don't shower with your holster and gun on do you? etc. etc. I hope you see the point.

If my family expects me to save them 100% of the time, are they really worth saving? Maybe they should be able to, (even if not willing to,) defend themselves. I will try my best to come to their aid, but if they aren't willing to equip themselves with the right knowledge and tools to save their own life, they must not value that life much. Even then, I'll still TRY to save them, but I won't feel guilty if I fail.

Guns are just tools that can be misused, and accidents can happen. Alcohol impairs you, but it's definately a matter of degrees. You're not completely sober and alert OR limp and unconscious. Attempting to completely eliminate all possibilities for mistake is futile because accidents ARE by definition, something you didn't plan for. I try to eliminate the majority of mistakes possible, and let the rest go. Living any other way would be a paranoid hell.

In short: know thyself.

 

[gunsmith]

if you ever see me drinking and armed please shoot me

I am a menace when I am drinking, I got clean and sober over ten years ago
and with Gods help, will never drink again.

I have a few friends though who love to drink and shoot.
I am a fairly decent shot but my old Airborne buddy
who drinks and drinks and drinks is a better shot then I am dead drunk!
plus a bigger safety ninny too.

 

[TargetTerror]

This is, obviously, a slippery slope. I have no doubt that a DA would use alcohol consumption against you in a shooting if he could. That said, you still have a right to defend yourself even if you are drunk. So long as the defense was justifiably self defense and legal, that you were drunk should not make a difference.

(But then again, hollow points are perfectly legal (most places) and oftentimes makes plays a major role in the jury's decision)

One thing to consider is that the justifiability of many SD situations hinges on very subtle and minute actions, both the perps and your own. Alcohol inhibits your ability to discern and analyze these actions, and might make you react to a situation differently than you might otherwise. Only you can know how alcohol will affect your judgment in this regard.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

I think you have a valid point, however you would be torn to pieces in court if u ever had to use a firearm for self defense. your judgement would definitely be suspect and most likely shredded by the prosecution.

 

[pete f]

I like many, will have the occaisional cocktail or beer. The last time I got intoxicated was nearly 10 years ago, and that was the first time in a long time. I see nothing wrong with having a glass of bourbon or fine lager while working on a gun, reloading, or doing darn near anything.

I am also a contractor who works with power tools on a daily basis, and often late at night. Here the Darn near anything rule does not fit, and here's why. I will never work in the shop on power tools after having a single drink. Why? firearms and reloading require to do something that is fully ingrained as a NO-NO to have a bad result. Power tools just require a moments inattention to alter your life instantly. Running 400 bdft of lumber over the jointer is a job that seems mind numbing, but at the same time requires 100% vigilence not to run your hand into a spinning power head. To have a bad result with a hand gun, you need to put your finger in the trigger gaurd and pull, a very specific act, with a jointer, a table saw, a chop saw, just a momentary lapse in where your hand goes, can result in an Oh S*** moment. I hope that makes sense. It does to me, and that is really all I care about, after 32 years as Carpenter, I still have 10 fingernails to trim on sunday mornings.

 

[obxned]

I don't go to bars anymore, too much 'stupid' in the air, and it might be catching. However, if at home and enjoying an adult beverage and someone enters forcfully with bad intentions, Mr. Mossberg will show them out.

 

[obxned]

I don't go to bars anymore, too much 'stupid' in the air, and it might be catching. However, if at home enjoying an adult beverage and someone enters forcefully with bad intentions, Mr. Mossberg will show them out.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Well if it was me I would not leave an unlocked gun around no matter who it is while any drinking is going on. No matter how much you think you are responsible or how much you think someone else is responsible I do not believe it would be a good idea to mix the two at all. I definetly suggest taking the weapon out of the mix, just to remove the temptation at all.

 

[Cosmoline]

Ditto "know thyself." I think some people drink differently than others. I usually drink wine or beer with dinner. I haven't been drunk for a decade. Others seem to take one sip and wake up with no pants in the ditch. To me, locking away the iron whenever I'm drinking something makes as much sense as locking them away when I'm eating cheese.

I strongly agree with the notion of AVOIDING BARS, whether you drink or not. They are bad places full of clowns who want to pick a fight. They also seem to foster a practice of binge drinking. Read your local crime blotter and it doesn't take too long to see the pattern.

Remember, there's something else that will impact your reaction time and judgment as much as alcohol--BEING TIRED. So when you wake up at three AM, you're going to be effectively "drunk" until your brain wakes up. Are you going to lock your weapons up at night so you can't use them?

 

[beretta9]

I solved this problem 30+ years ago I stopped drinking. no alcohol, no problems PS I'm 57 now

That fits me exactly too.

I would not be a bit surprised if someone like Biker could drink a case of cold ones, and still be responsible with firearms. But I have seen others who have acted really stupid after three cold ones.

It is like applying for a permit to carry. Are we willing to take the responsibility and aftermath that may come with it.

 

[gunsmith]

isn't this like "beer at the gun club"

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=249613&highlight=jameson

post 48 included this gem of wisdom from me

you shouldn't shoot and drink at the same time...
unless shooting makes you nervous, then a couple of shots of Jameson Irish Whiskey to soothe your nerves is ok.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

If I am having a beer at home I never put the gun away. If I am then leaving within the hour, it gets locked up; it's the law. If I am having more than the occasional beer, i.e. hot tub party, they're in the safe. If I have a gun on me when we go out to eat, I don't drink. Simple. If I know where we're going, and I like to have a beer there, again it's at home. If that place happens to be a bar, it's illegal to even take it in. If the wife wants to stop at a bar while out, and I'm carryng, she has two choices. Go home first and safe the gun, or choose another place. These are the times she gets rather bitchy about my carrying. Tough.

For most of my occasional drinking at home, the gun stays on me.

 

[gggman]

BS. Quit propogating that old wives tale as fact, since it may or not be true. I've been civily sued twice (once involving a firearm, the other a bat) and had been imbibing some adult beverages prior to both instances. It wasn't an issue in either case because I wasn't drunk.
In any case, if you're in the right, you're in the right. Maybe y'all ought to put away your shooters when you're forced to take your pain pills or depression meds. Ya think?
How about when you're sleep deprived?

You seem to take a pretty cavalier attitude about being sued, for someone who has been sued twice already for incidents involving alcohol consumption. I don't know the details of your cases, but I assume you had to mount some sort of legal defense. Often those can run into the tens of thousands of dollars. Yet you scoff at the thought of civil suit lawyers making someone's life a living hell for using lethal force while under the influence.
As for your suggestion of locking up the weapons while using medication or being sleep deprived, you might be right. However, this thread was about alcohol and guns, and I still feel that the two are a bad combination.
If someone uses lethal force with a firearm while under the influence of alcohol, it will be an issue, and that is not "BS".

 

[Biker]

For the record, both incidents occured on my property and my HO's ins. paid for my lawyers. As I mentioned, alcohol played no role in either case (on my part, anyway) and the incidents would have happened regardless.
No one was killed, BTW.

Biker

 

[CNYCacher]

You seem to take a pretty cavalier attitude about being sued, for someone who has been sued twice already for incidents involving alcohol consumption. I don't know the details of your cases, but I assume you had to mount some sort of legal defense. Often those can run into the tens of thousands of dollars. Yet you scoff at the thought of civil suit lawyers making someone's life a living hell for using lethal force while under the influence.

I don't see Biker as having a cavalier attitude at all; he was merely citing two examples that he has personal experience with where alcohol was involved in a defense case and it was not an issue in court. Simple.

It wasn't an issue in either case because I wasn't drunk.

If someone uses lethal force with a firearm while under the influence of alcohol, it will be an issue, and that is not "BS".

gggman, Biker has dis-proven your conclusion by counterexample. He just told everyone that it was not an issue in two cases, but you are trying to convince him and us that it will be an issue? I'm not saying that it won't be an issue, it very well may be an issue, but you seem to be trying to convince us that it will always be an issue, and that's not true. I am sure that every case is different, and the circumstances surrounding the case will determine if alcohol is an issue or not.

 

[junyo]

If someone breaks into your home, the fact that you've had a couple doesn't change that fact. If you're being mugged, the fact that you've just come out of a bar doesn't change that fact. Your ability to execute whatever actions you deem appropriate for your self defense are perhaps impaired, as has been pointed out, so are they when you're woken from a deep sleep, or tired, or just been cracked on the noggin. The only relevant factors are your ability make valid threat/nonthreat evaluations and accurately apply lead to legitmate threats. If you get sued, it would be a neat trick on the part of the plaintiff's lawyer to prove that those two beers made you 'misinterpet' the fact that his client was in your house uninvited, stuffing your property into a sack, with the crowbar he'd just used to pry open a door tucked into his belt. If the situation's ambigious, you should deliberately err on the side of caution, but that should be your policy anyway.

In the end it's a question of knowing just how impaired you are by a given substance/condition/time/emotional state, i.e. knowing yourself.

 

[gggman]

gggman, Biker has dis-proven your conclusion by counterexample. He just told everyone that it was not an issue in two cases, but you are trying to convince him and us that it will be an issue?

Not true. Neither of Biker's cases involved lethal force.
I'm not, by the way, picking on Biker. I'm just trying to point out that if lethal force is used by someone under the influence of alcohol, (I don't think I have to define lethal), being under the influence will be used against that person. Biker asserted that that was "BS". I respectfully disagree.

 

[Biker]

The fact that no one got dead is irrelevant (and fortunate). Two people (one required 3 surgeries to repair his face) were very seriously injured. Lethal force, in the eyes of the law, was applied.

Biker

 

[Afy]

If I am drinking... the guns get locked. No two ways about it.