Alienating Cops

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Ok, I really cant express how much I hope this thread stays clean and on topic. So, with that out of the way. This is a question directed towards cops and people in the 2A RKBA community.

Does anyone else feel like cops are being alienated from the RKBA cause?

I feel that cops like myself are a valuable asset to the RKBA community. First off, as much as some people hate us, a lot listen to us and respect what we have to say. And when I tell people that CCW and 2A rights are important to society, people start to pay more attention because its coming from a cop and not some "gun nut."

I was a gunnie/gun nut/whatever before I was a cop, and will continue to be a gunnie long after I retire. I know cops get a bad rap, and the laws on the books do not make it any easier. But I feel alienated and cast away from a community that needs as many allies as it can get.

I read threads about killing JBT's and whatnot and its just as gut-wrenching as reading about someone talk about enjoying to kill US troops.

The overwhelming majority of cops I met or worked with support RKBA and a civilans right to defend themselves. I take the time to teach newbies the ropes about guns, spread the word of CCW reform and 2A rights, and do my best to be a gun owning American.

But when I keep running into the obstacles of "I wont pay taxes you JBT!!" etc etc, I feel that the divide between the groups is only growing.

Im on your side, and I want to shoot holes in paper like you guys. Anyone else feel the same way?

 

[The-Fly]

The point you make is excellent. There are too many of us who bash LE based on a few idiots (the JBT's that confiscated firearms in NO, some of the high profile chiefs that are anti's), but fail to give credit to the vast majority of officers who are pro gun and fight the good cause.

Massad Ayoob is a cop. Many of the better ccw instructors are as well (including mine).

 

[Strings]

the problem comes from both sides: those who aren't LEO that will cry "JBT!!!!" at the drop of a hat (regardless of circumstances), and the police who pull the "Thin Blue Line" defense ANY time LEO activities are questioned...

 

[RioShooter]

The overwhelming majority of cops I met or worked with support RKBA and a civilans right to defend themselves.

I frequently shoot with LEOs from many agencies; city, county, state and federal. Last Thursday I shot pins with the local SWAT commander. ALL of them are supporters of the RKBA and CCW. However, these LEOs are also shooting enthusiasts, so their views may differ from those who shoot only on qualification days.

 

[jakeswensonmt]

I don't know about alienating cops, but when it comes to cops alienating citizens, this didn't help.

It's a glitzy PDF made by the Joyce Foundation which financed/bought off/bribed the International Police Chiefs for the purposes of advocating ever more draconian gun restrictions.

Considering that this comes from guys calling the shots, it doesn't make me sleep any better.

I did find your post, DontBurnMyFlag on the poll of LEO's and whether or not they'd actually confiscate the guns (I had to look up what a JBT was and stumbled on it.)

The whole situation is getting a little scary.

 

[Clipper]

Do you realize how scarry the New Orleans thing was to your average civilian? Talk about gut-wrenching, we live with the reality that all the lip service aside, that not only an entire city police department, but loaners from all over the country were willing to S***-can the Constitution. Why? The 'orders' defense isn't good enough, and you know it. Those guys were unwilling to jeopardise their pensions over the Constitutional rights of the people they're sworn to protect. How many newspaper articles can you point me to about officers refusing to carry out those orders. I don't mean some guy speaking annonimously about ignoring the orders in the field, but someone who stood up at the briefing and told 'em where to get off! I sure haven't heard of any, because those officers would be the real heroes of New Orleans. What about those guys in Atlanta? How about those house-burning, dog-killing heroes in Nevada? With the atrocities and cover-ups we read about with depressing regularity I can't help but be distrustful of anyone in uniform until I have convinced myself that they truely have the citizen's best interest in mind. Cops, like any authoritarian group, are their own worst enemy, and are the only ones that can improve their image by really policing themselves and by each officer keeping not just their own, but most importantly their peers ethical standards beyond reproach. That 'protect our own' stuff is costing them...

 

[Im283]

JBT?

If more cops were gunnies then there might not be the rep that cops have when it comes to carry permits and regular people owning and shooting guns.
Unfortunately it seems the majority of LEO are anti's.

I believe that most people that become LEO do not do it to be able to have a gun or shoot.

Since it is thanksgiving I will add that I am thankful for the LEO's on this board.

 

[308win]

The FOP and IAoPC are the real issue. The FOP has sold out to liberal causes in an effort to curry favor with the politicians the leadership believes will support the FOP. My brother used to be very active in the Illinois FOP until they went left then he gave up his statewide duties in disgust. The rank and file should get the FOP to represent their interests and not the interests of the FOP executives.

 

[zxcvbob]

I'm speaking just for myself here. I think the problem is, there are so many horrendous examples of criminal activity by cops, and severe civil rights violations, and seldom are there any consequences. If the victim is lucky, he'll get an apology (eventually) from the assistant police chief, and that's about it; he's on his own to pick up the pieces of his life.

I think law abiding cops generally have the respect of law abiding citizens. But when the police are not accountable to anybody, it doesn't matter that 98% of them are good guys. That 2% (and I'm just making up these numbers) reflect badly on all of you as long as their misdeeds are tolerated. I'm still thankful for the job the police do (most of them), I just avoid any official contact with them and I'm always on my guard around them. I can't necessarily tell the difference between a good cop and a bad one until it's too late.

If we start seeing rogue prosecutors getting more than 1 day in jail, and cops going to prison or thrown off the force and paying big settlements out of their own pockets when they commit assault, murder, extortion, etc, and the mayor and police chief of N.O. returning the guns they stole from the citizens and are currently in contempt of court (with no consequences again) then maybe y'all will regain some public trust.

Best regards,
Bob

P.S. I hate it when threads start up about "is it OK to defend yourself against a cop". That just seems very bad karma no matter what direction it takes. The question assumes that the scenario is likely enough that it's worth discussing.

 

[zxcvbob]

Unfortunately it seems the majority of LEO are anti's.

I think the majority of police chiefs are antis. I think the majority of the rank-and-file cops are probably in favor it RKBA -- except maybe in places like NYC where people have been deprived of guns for so long they begin to think it's normal.

 

[Tokugawa]

Bear in mind that you only hear the bad news- yes, there are bad apples but most police are doing a hard job well.

 

[rugerfreak]

You're only a JBT if you're coming to take my guns or violate my rights---which me---a law abiding citizen--- takes very seriously.

Otherwise you're a good guy and a good cop.

 

[Im283]

finally figured it out.
JBT=jack booted thug

 

[Autolycus]

I agree with what zxcvbob posted. The problem is that many LEOs are willing to accept gun control and enforce it as it is part of the job. The problem is that they are exempt from these same asinine laws (in most cases) and it becomes a double standard. You would disarm me with the force of law for wanting to protect myself all of the while you carry a gun on duty and off duty to protect yourself. Just because a law is in effect, does not make it right.

Get your LEO friends and brothers to sign a petition to say they will enforce gun laws as they are unconstitutional. Dont support anti-gun politicians. Leave unions that support more gun control. I dont see any action being taken by LE that really suggests they care.

Have you ever arrested someone for illegally carrying a gun? If so then your actions suggest your ok with the double standard that exists. Dont do it anymore. Confiscate the gun and charge the criminal for other charges but refuse to charge them for the gun. Stand up for your principles and your beliefs.

Katrina was a perfect example of things. It was a catalyst of sorts for many gunowners. They saw LEO disarming people on tv. It made me re-evaluate on whether I am able to trust LEOs as they will do things because "it's their job" and I cannot respond to their violent assault with violence as I will be killed by simply being outnumbered.

Ask yourself why LE need to be given exemption to gun laws and citizens do not? Write letters and use your position as a LEO to further the RKBA cause as you have been doing. Ask why a politician supports gun control while in uniform. There are things you can do. I have seen many advertisements where LEOs use their position to push an anti-gun agenda.

Here is an example...

 

[308win]

Let's face it, the majority of us have interaction with police when we have either broken the law or have been victims. Neither situation is a positive one for us - in the former we are not happy and in the latter we are not happy that the crime wasn't prevented instead of maybe solved at some point in the future. The policeman is doing his job to the best of his ability. The only actions (other than the obvious unlawful actions) that I have a personal problem with are when the actions are obviously revenue raising such as the local police running radar on controlled access highways as an example; maybe the mayor told the Chief to do this and the patrolman doesn't have any choice but it still aggravates me to no end. And don't get me started on State Police - puffed up meter mollies in my personal opinion.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I think the majority of problems comes from the CLEOs regarding RKBA.

They're the ones you have to go to get sign offs on Class III weapons. Half of them don't sign off and then you see crap like the NJ cops goofing off with alcohol and SBRs on Fox News.

Then there's the CLEOs who come out against CCW, like the guy at Texas State did when questioned on Fox 7 news about his opinion on concealedcampus. He said something to the effect of, "well, we [cops] have training your average college student does not. I could see shootouts on campus."

I mean cripes, all you're doing is shooting a metal projectile out of a tube at close distance. This isn't sniping school.

Anyhow, to keep it back on topic, this is why there's a lot of animosity towards cops.

 

[absolut_beethoven]

I feel that cops like myself are a valuable asset to the RKBA community. First off, as much as some people hate us, a lot listen to us and respect what we have to say. And when I tell people that CCW and 2A rights are important to society, people start to pay more attention because its coming from a cop and not some "gun nut."

First off, we need the support of EVERYBODY who supports RKBA!!!

Except those who are obviously mentally unbalanced and off their meds.

Secondly, you are, IMHO, 100% correct in that what a cop says will generally have a lot more influence on the populace than what most of us say.

Lastly, cops do a mostly thankless job, coupled with the fact that good news rarely makes the news, so one rarely reads about all the good things that cops do virtually every single day. We only get to see and read about the few bad apples who step out of line. Even worse is when the cops do their best under terrible circumstances, and the usual morons trot out their old arguments of racism police abuse, and how little "Johny", notwithstanding his 100 page arrest record, would NEVER deliberately even hurt a fly - yeah right!?!??

 

[siglite]

I'm so torn on this issue. My personal experience and knowledge of individual LEOs stood in stark contrast with the criminal confiscations and rights abuses of NO, and various anecdotal stories highly hyped in the media from time to time.

The "following orders" argument doesn't hold water with me re: NO either.

So here I am. On one side, I have NO, and a list of highly sensationalized police abuses in the media over the years. I have the knowledge that every LEO on this board would likely confiscate an "illegal" gun in nearly any enforcement situation. Hypothetically, how many LEOs would confiscate a pistol illegally carried and concealed without a CCW in a state besides AK or VT? My gut says most of them would. "I don't make the bad laws, I just enforce 'em." Yeah, true. But does that get you off the hook, morally? Would you have arrested Randy Weaver over 1/4" of missing wood from a buttstock?

On the other side, I have my personal experience and knowledge of many individual pro 2a LEOs. I also have assurances by LEOs all over the internet just like the OP. But sometimes, it sounds so much like "We're the government, we're here to help. Trust us." It sometimes sounds like that even when it comes from a personal friend who carries a badge.

If I didn't know many FINE law enforcement officers who are truly good men, and truly abhor corruption, there'd be no question at all. If it weren't for that personal knowledge, I'd probably be rabidly anti-cop.

So the net result... here I am. Squarely on the fence, and forced to evaluate each officer and each situation case by case.

 

[BobMcG]

Nearly 30,000 American lives are lost to gun violence each year—a number far higher than in any other
developed country. Since 1963, more Americans died by gunfire than perished in combat in the whole of the
20th century.

Is this figure for real or is it BS propaganda? I find it impossible to believe.

Specific recommendations include:
• Requiring that all gun sales take place through Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders with mandatory
background checks
• Enacting an effective ban on military-style assault weapons, armor-piercing handgun ammunition, .50
caliber sniper rifles and other weapons that enable criminals to outgun law enforcement

Isn't it nice to know that they back the BS coming from the likes of the Brady Bunch and the Clintonites?

 

[orionengnr]

DontBurnMyFlag-
You sound like one of the good guys. Glad to have you aboard.
If you read the responses here, you will understand that the general populace is not anti-LEO.
We are anti-Thin Blue Line.
We are anti-Cover-My-Brother's-A$$ right or wrong.
We are anti excuse-making, rationalizing, selling-out of the American people.

Convince your brothers-in-arms that you/they are the only ones who can regain the credibility, respect and support from us Regular Joes. Do not tolerate/condone/support/hide inappropriate police behavior of any type.

Principle above Policy. Protect and Serve. They are not just words. Live the oath, and you will have the respect and support of 99% of the people on this board.

Thank you for all you do, and Happy Thanksgiving. Best regards, Rich

 

[Werewolf]

The overwhelming majority of cops I met or worked with support RKBA and a civilans right to defend themselves.

And you know what? I really do believe that.

Which forces me to ask - why then don't the rank and file LEO's protest when their Chiefs are publicly so anti-gun? Why don't you guys go on public record as not agreeing with your anti-gun anti-citizen with gun Chiefs?

 

[zxcvbob]

Why don't you guys go on public record as not agreeing with your anti-gun anti-citizen with gun Chiefs?

Do you really think that would be a good career move? Is that a reasonable thing to ask of someone; to speak out publicly against their boss? OTOH, if the police union would speak out in favor of RKBA...

 

[Old Dog]

Cannot let this statement pass unchallenged:

... there are so many horrendous examples of criminal activity by cops, and severe civil rights violations, and seldom are there any consequences.

That is not the problem. It may seem to the average person who reads the newspapers or watches television news (or surfs the 'net) that there are a lot of "horrendous examples" but ... I submit that examples of criminal activity -- and alleged civil rights violations -- by law enforcement officers are, for the most part by their very nature, extremely high profile and therefore every "example" (even from the smallest community) quickly becomes nationally newsworthy. Frankly, the fact that officer misconduct is so swiftly spotlighted and broadcast points to the very best facet of our system. Police corruption is not systemic in this country, nor is it routinely tolerated by departments and their leadership, as so many of you want to believe.

Consequences? Normally pretty severe for the average patrol officer. These days, a simple letter of reprimand in a service jacket will often dead-end an otherwise budding law enforcement career. Extract Chicago and NYC PDs from the equation, and I think most reasonable people would agree with sanction levied against the average cop who becomes a criminal offender (or civil rights violator). The overwhelming majority of police officers cannot abide other officers who create a loss of credibility for their own agency and/or bring shame and scorn upon their own department. Officer misconduct does not, as so many THR members seemingly desire to believe, go uninvestigated nor un-dealt with.

why then don't the rank and file LEO's protest when their Chiefs are publicly so anti-gun?

Gee, wonder who the PR machine is normally behind?

Oh, and the "thin blue line?" If y'all only knew. For the most part, it's CYA for everyone when something goes wrong ... The media (video, the internet, et al), modern forensic techniques ("throw down" gun? Planting evidence?) and the highly-charged political atmosphere so pervasive in every aspect of any government agency is quickly making the "thin blue line" crap a thing of the past.

Now, here's a pretty silly statement:

Have you ever arrested someone for illegally carrying a gun? If so then your actions suggest your ok with the double standard that exists. Dont do it anymore. Confiscate the gun and charge the criminal for other charges but refuse to charge them for the gun. Stand up for your principles and your beliefs

Uh ... please, Tecumseh, think about this a minute.

 

[dave_pro2a]

Cause and effect.

Reap what you sow.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Etc.

Imho, a majority of police officer are anti gun, as such they are pre-alienated.

And a majority of cops have a militarized mindset, viewing 'civilians' as the enemy -- and as such they deserve alienation.

Also, police are empowerd to lie in the performance of their job, and otherwise engage in unethical behavior in their official capacity. It's no wonder that a majority 'cross the line' and enage in abuse of power activities.

If you force a person to be a liar, train them to do so, encourage the activity and reward it... then it will affect their other actions imho -- and it will cause society at large, by enlarge, to despise them. The result? Feelings of alienation and persecution, as well as feelings of superiority and ego driven power fantasies.

Police officers are generally not held accountable for the illegal activities that they perpetrate upon citizens. In my local big city there's a stunning record of police who commit assault and use excessive violence, plant evidence, lie under oath, etc., always getting off the hook.

There is no civilian oversight. There is no accountability. Records about immoral police officers are kept secret.

When one group has such a power over the other group, with nothing to tether them or restrain their actions, then the second group ('civilians') will feel alienated due to the disproportional distribution of power.

When that group feels alienated... then they will rightfully ostracize the first group (and also actively lash out or chafe under the oppression). The first group (police) will therefore begin to feel alienated. Cry me a river.

So who started it? I'd say the police, by creating and perpetrating an "Us Vs. Them" mentality.

The ability and power to feel non-alienated rests squarely with the police. They can choose to change bahavior, and thus change the way citizens perceptions of them -- and thus change the way they 'feel.' To simply say something like "Come'on guys, don't be so hard on the cops because they will feel alieanated (feel bad)" simply sounds like a joke imho, something you'd hear from a caller to the Dr. Laura show.

Change the thing you CAN control your own behavior, and then your feelings will change. So, police who want to not feel alienated, can take steps every day to achieve that goal.

Are there expections to the rule? Of course.

 

[Rachen]

JBT's in New Orleans:


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