Alienating Cops

[Deanimator]

It seems that the lot of you have been brainwashed by too much NYPD blue, seeing backroom tortures and planted weapons behind every arrest. The "thing blue line" you so fervently claim is mostly a product of TV cops shows. And the apparent widespread police misconduct and corruption is only apparently because of media spotlighting on only the negative.

I've been "brainwashed" by the facts.

Do a Google search on "Chicago", "SOS", and "Jerome Finnegan".

All of the denial in the world won't change the fact that there was RECENTLY operating within the Chicago PD a home invasion and kidnapping ring, and that the ring leader was recently arrested for plotting the contract murders of several cops to prevent their testifying against him. Strangely, IAD seemed to do NOTHING about these sorts of behaviors for YEARS. The recent savage beating of a barmaid by an off duty cop who later used his position to threaten witnesses with false arrest and fabricated evidence, and who was REPEATEDLY shown preferential treatment by other cops is only icing on the cake.

I don't claim that all cops are criminals.

But neither would I claim in contradiction of a mountain of evidence that virtually none are.

 

[Lucky]

...The other camp staunchly asserts that all cops are JBT's if they don't refuse to enforce a law that they see as unconstitutional. This would result in the loss of the officer's career and livelihood, but that doesn't matter.

Which one is more firmly grounded in reality?

The fallacy of bifurcation reigns supreme in this thread.

That seems like a pretty concise summary. But I think you downplay the significance. You're talking about the end of your country as you know it, the end of 'the land of liberty'. That's pretty freaking significant, not 'just' a 'mere' illegal action imposed on the public. (which is pretty messed up to defend in the first place)

 

[sacp81170a]

That seems like a pretty concise summary. But I think you downplay the significance. You're talking about the end of your country as you know it, the end of 'the land of liberty'. That's pretty freaking significant, not 'just' a 'mere' illegal action imposed on the public.

In what way am I downplaying anything? There is a group on this board that paints all LEO's with a very broad brush and implies that we're all "JBT's" by association if we don't immediately quit. I've pretty much given up commenting on threads like this because nothing constructive ever comes of it. If a few LEO's offer up evidence and logical arguments that refute the JBT Theory(tm) we're immediately shouted down. I'm done with this one.

You can work with those of us who support the RKBA (a lot more than many of you may realize) and use what influence we may have to your advantage or you can play the "you're a JBT if you don't agree with me and quit your job" game. Pretty disingenuous if you ask me. Bye now.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The "thing blue line" you so fervently claim is mostly a product of TV cops shows.

No ... it is NOT a product of TV cops shows. It is very real, and I have experienced it. If you don't think it is real and pervasive, you've been drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

[bsf]

Alienate: to make indifferent or hostile

Does anyone else feel like cops are being alienated from the RKBA cause?

I do not know. I think this is a complicated question. If there is a trend in LE of increasing opposition or apathy towards the RKBA, why is it occurring? What or who is responsible? If this trend exists, is it the result of individual officers changing their views, or the result of an influx of recruits who oppose or do not care about the RKBA? Maybe I do not understand the intent of the question in the OP.

If the intent of the question is to ask “Is a schism developing between the following two groups: (1) non-LE who support the RKBA and (2) LE?”, I would say “yes”.

When I apply serious thought to the “why” of this, I get lost in all the twists and turns of possible causes. My mind posits so many possible contributing factors. The Constitution and Amendments in a sense are like the Great Pyramids. The energy required to build them was gigantic. When they were completed, they were truly colossal, magnificent; and some probably looked upon them and believed they would stand forever. They were wrong, though. Though they are still impressive, a site to behold, man and nature have taken their toll. The forces of nature still wear them down bit by bit. If the course is held, they will some day be reduced to rubble. Such appears to be the fate of our Constitution. LE simply enforces laws, which should uphold the constitution. This is no longer the case, though. It is inevitable that those who hold dear the rights enumerated in the first ten Amendments will look upon those who enforce laws disrespectful of those rights with suspicion and contempt, and recoil from them. It appears the consensus among those who truly support the RKBA is that current laws are a serious affront to the 2A. The schism grows as “the law” becomes more unconstitutional and LE continues to enforce these laws and/or behave contrary to the 2A.

I realize this is a complicated issue and am not trying to disparage LE. I acknowledge the need for people that will enforce laws. If every LEO who supported the 2A quit, I do not believe the situation would improve in the short term. I do believe we are on very slippery slope and picking up momentum, though.

 

[TCB in TN]

I do not know. I think this is a complicated question.

I agree completely. There are at least 2 sides to every story.

I have said it many times before, but I have a large number of friends, family, and others I know fairly well in LE here locally. The majority of them are decent enough folks, but there are some that honestly scare the snot out of me. They talk enough around me for me to learn that the feelings I get about many of those folks is not far off, and yet they seem to just hang around on the force until something real bad happens then it gets swept under the rug and they finally get forces out. Several have had many smaller episodes before the big one that got them booted. The thing is that most all the folks on the force know, they just don't seem to do anything. In the last 5 or 6 years we have had a couple of officers in trouble over stalking women, drugs, theft, spouse abuse, and a variety of other offenses. (I live in a county of 50,000) we don't have that many officers. In one of the adjoining counties they have had similar problems, including one officer who ran a drug and theft ring and ended up being caught paying a TBI agent to kill someone. Now don't get me wrong I understand that they are the minority, but the majority don't seem to be doing much to stop the problem. So from a supportive citizens standpoint, I have some real issues with the current situation. (And that is just our local situation not trying to drag Chicago, NYC, or NO, LA, ATL, etc into it)

The flip side to the coin is that you have a large segment of the population that will not only not HELP LEO's but will actively hinder them. To them every LEO is a JBT, a racist, someone who will frame them, shoot them, power tripping. People who will cheer for BG's to get away, and wouldn't help a LEO if their life depended on it. These folks need to get a grip, and to understand that they are cutting off their own nose just to spite their face.

Both sides have a lot wrong, and both need to get it fixed. We NEED good LEO's, we need to have individuals who are ready willing and able to truly serve and protect. Our way of life really depends upon someone helping to keep order, and to help pick up the pcs. But then again LEO's need us on their side also. We do pay their saleries, and they are NOT there for their own sake. Places where the populace has turned on the LEA's are typpically places where no on e wants to live and no one want to be a LEO.

 

[Zoogster]

The alienation is because many legislators have recently made them increasingly seperate under the law. They no longer need to support or defend the RKBA because it no longer effects thier own rights.
Look to CA for example. LEO are exempt from the "safe" handgun list, magazine limitations, and a long list of other firearm related legislation. Enjoy CCW off duty, and retired. In CA peace officers and retired peace officers are exempt from needing a CCW.
They are essentialy a seperate class of citizens, subject to seperate laws, and fighting different legal fights.

The way to unite the two sides in the long term, even if it creates friction in the short term is to pass legislation which clearly makes LEO subject to the same firearm laws as everyone else.
Make the RKBA and the right to self defense thier fight as much as your own.

When LEO and retired LEO enjoy firearm privilidges that others do not then they are not longer in the same fight as the rest of us. We need the credible voices of LEO on our side, not silent even as thier top brass (politicians) view RKBA as something that makes law enforcement more challenging and condemn it in the media, while ironicly carrying and protecting themselves with a firearm.

When subject to different laws, treated differently, and viewed differently, they are of course going to start to believe they are indeed quite different. So different in fact that maybe you do deserve different laws, and maybe there is something to the notion of disarming or reducing your freedoms while legaly possessing arms. You just cannot responsibly handle them in the same manner you see.

Remove the seperate status and you remove the divide.

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

What is a "JBT"?

NASCAR

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Zoogster: The way to unite the two sides in the long term, even if it creates friction in the short term is to pass legislation which clearly makes LEO subject to the same firearm laws as everyone else.
Make the RKBA and the right to self defense thier fight as much as your own.

I have been saying that for years. And I keep getting crap for it. Either everyone is created equal or some animals are more equal than other animals. I am sorry but cops should not enjoy priveledges.

I have heard many LEOs say it is a right. Well it is not a right until everyone can exercise it.

So lets work hard in getting LEOs subjected to the same gun laws as all of us. This way the rank and file will come out and speak for us. However though we have to find a way to prevent them from just selectively enforcing the law. Perhaps they should be forced to lock their firearms up at work? All of them. And make it a condition of their employment that they not carry?

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

The local Douglas County Sheriff's Dept---(Not OPD)---is increasingly --highly visably becoming a bunch of JBT's.

No longer seen in their long time standard brown officers uniforms---but rather with shaved heads---brown t-shirts---camo BDU pants and of course black military jack boots.

Not occasionally---but EVERY time they have a vehicle pulled over--occupants are pulled out--and the vehicle is opened up with about 5 of these monkeys seaching the entire car---pulling childrens car seats out of the back seat and all the contents out of the back end.

Nothing ever seems to come from these illegal searches beacuse you NEVER hear of any high profile busts on the news----these seem to be an over exercise of authority and outright harassment. From what I've seen these searches seem to be racially motivated also---in every one I've seen--vehicle occupants were non-white-----and I'm a white guy.

Its getting past time to real these clowns in---instead waiting for the city to ingulf the whole county and force these guys out a job.


I REALLY don't like what I'm seeing here.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"Not occasionally---but EVERY time they have a vehicle pulled over--occupants are pulled out--and the vehicle is opened up with about 5 of these monkeys seaching the entire car---pulling childrens car seats out of the back seat and all the contents out of the back end."


in my dotage one thing i've observed is that absolute statements , and especially the loud fervent rants, are less than truthful for the most part. often i've found that the ranter knows this and the volume and fervor are to camoflauge this.funny that

 

[jeep-2]

Do you realize how scarry the New Orleans thing was to your average civilian? Talk about gut-wrenching, we live with the reality that all the lip service aside, that not only an entire city police department, but loaners from all over the country were willing to S***-can the Constitution. Why? The 'orders' defense isn't good enough, and you know it. Those guys were unwilling to jeopardise their pensions over the Constitutional rights of the people they're sworn to protect. How many newspaper articles can you point me to about officers refusing to carry out those orders. I don't mean some guy speaking annonimously about ignoring the orders in the field, but someone who stood up at the briefing and told 'em where to get off! I sure haven't heard of any, because those officers would be the real heroes of New Orleans. What about those guys in Atlanta? How about those house-burning, dog-killing heroes in Nevada? With the atrocities and cover-ups we read about with depressing regularity I can't help but be distrustful of anyone in uniform until I have convinced myself that they truely have the citizen's best interest in mind. Cops, like any authoritarian group, are their own worst enemy, and are the only ones that can improve their image by really policing themselves and by each officer keeping not just their own, but most importantly their peers ethical standards beyond reproach. That 'protect our own' stuff is costing them...
no truer words ever written..

 

[revjen45]

"in my dotage one thing i've observed is that absolute statements , and especially the loud fervent rants, are less than truthful for the most part. often i've found that the ranter knows this and the volume and fervor are to camoflauge this.funny that"

Yup. All generalities, including this one, are false.

 

[JohnBT]

"What is a "JBT"?"

Jack Booted Thug.

It's just a cute little shorthand thing used by the cop haters and assorted anti-government conspiracy theorists. It was an interesting phrase when first used, but wore out its' welcome years ago. Anybody who uses it when attempting to make a logical argument gets snickered at - either to their face or behind their back.

JBT

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

thanks for proving my point

 

[jeep-2]

here's a poem that everyone has forgotten because when someone is tazored or had the hell clubbed out of them or even shot, they say nothing unless it's a very close relitive.
I don't mind getting stopped if i've broke a law, but when i do, i don';t need some JBT giving me a lecture on what i've done wrong knowing that if his brother or wife gets stopped for the same thing, they have a card to flash that makes them exempt from getting a ticket.. the first time i had been stopped in 25 yrs was last yr and i didn't get a ticket because i am a veteran, i guess the cop was one also.
I do watch the cops show on TV and do not like what i see going on, it is becomming like it's them and us, them being the good guys and all non cops being the bad people,. they will spend hrs and wreck 6 cars just to get a speeder, lock up people as felons just for having a pipe, it's like a game to them.

The version inscribed at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. reads:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[TCB in TN]

"What is a "JBT"?"

Jack Booted Thug.

It's just a cute little shorthand thing used by the cop haters and assorted anti-government conspiracy theorists. It was an interesting phrase when first used, but wore out its' welcome years ago. Anybody who uses it when attempting to make a logical argument gets snickered at - either to their face or behind their back.

OK, you put out the bait, so I'll bite. Lets look at a couple of major negative LEO/Citizen interactions and you tell me what term SHOULD be used.

The NO, LA gun confiscations

The Chicago, barmaid beatdown, and follow up cover up

The ATL no-knock drug bust gone bad and follow up cover up

We will stay away from the fed. issues such as Waco and Ruby Ridge and just deal with these individual LEA events.

Just what would you consider an appropriate term to use for the systematic search and removal of weapons of protection from the hands of law abiding citizens, during a time of emergency. Or the brutal beating of a 120lb woman by a 250lb officer and then death threats from his fellow officers to try and prevent her pressing charges. Or maybe the fact that a no-knock warrent was executed on a 92 yearold woman's home to find non-existent drugs. The officers didn't bother to do anything that would really even appear to be detective work, like you know..... watching the home to see if there was drug dealing being done there. They then give false information to rec. the no-knock warrent and then end up shooting a 92 year old, planting evidence to justify their "mistake", threaten another individual to get him to lie for them, to help them cover it up and well you know the rest.


To me the above individuals and those officers who support, condone, or make excuses for them certainly fit the bill for JBTs. Now I am open to any other terminology that would both be acceptable to the LE community and yet still show the derision and contempt that these particular Scumbags who just happen to be officers so deserve. So please do share.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i didn't get a ticket because i am a veteran, i guess the cop was one also.


the irony here escapes nyou i guess in light of

" don't mind getting stopped if i've broke a law, but when i do, i don';t need some JBT giving me a lecture on what i've done wrong knowing that if his brother or wife gets stopped for the same thing, they have a card to flash that makes them exempt from getting a ticket.. "

just depends whose oxen is gored huh

The Partial Judge (Aesop)
A FARMER came to a neighbouring Lawyer, expressing great concern for an accident which, he said, had just happened.
“One of your oxen,” continued he, “has been gored by an unlucky bull of mine, and I should be glad to know how I am to make you reparation.”
“Thou art a very honest fellow,” replied the Lawyer, “and wilt not think it unreasonable that I expect one of your oxen in return.”
“It is no more than justice,” quoth the Farmer, “to be sure: but what did I say? I mistake--It is your bull that has killed one of my oxen.”
“Indeed!” says the Lawyer, “that alters the case: I will enquire into the affair; and if -"
“And if!” said the Farmer—“the business I find would have been concluded without an if had you been as ready to do justice to others, as to extract it from them.”
[Note: the moral is: "The injuries we do, and those we suffer, are seldom weighed in the same scales."

 

[Deanimator]

And, of Chicago cops, how many are actually Bad News?

The situation in Chicago has reached the stage where that's COMPLETELY irrelevant.

The problem in Chicago has LONG since ceased to be one of the acts of individual police officers.

The entire SYSTEM is corrupt. In nearly EVERY recent high profile case of police misconduct or criminal acts on the part of Chicago police officers, BLATANT favoritism, collusion, or turning of the blind eye have been major factors.

In the murder of Michael Pleasance by Officer Alvin Weems, former Police Superintendent Phil Cline overruled a police disciplinary board which recommended that Weems be fired. Instead, Cline gave Weems a THIRTY DAY SUSPENSION for blowing the head off of an unarmed man, for NO reason (by Weems' sworn admission). Weems was later PROMOTED to Detective. Weems is STILL wandering the streets of Chicago as a police officer.

Chicago IAD is being investigated by Federal Prosecutor Fitzgerald for it's TOTAL inaction regarding the home invasion ring operating within the SOS section.

When 250lb. Officer Anthony Abbate stomped on 115lb. barmaid Karolyna Obrycka, he was both UNDERCHARGED with a misdemeanor, AND allowed to hide out at an alleged rehab facility. When arrested on the misdemeanor charges, he was NOT handcuffed. He used his position as a police officer to threaten the victim and the bar owner with planted evidence and false arrest. When he went to court on felony charges, Chicago police officers were instructed by a superior to block access to the media, INCLUDING blocking adjacent entrances to private property.

When off duty police officers assaulted citizens in the Jefferson Tap, bar employees called 911. Responding officers allowed themselves to be waved off by the assailants, who showed their badges.

The problem in Chicago isn't with individual officers. It's with a system which is utterly rotten to its core. There is NO meaningful supervision of the officers of the Chicago PD. In fact, their so called "supervision" enables and sometimes ENCOURAGES criminality of the most despicable sort.

Claiming that "most" Chicago cops aren't corrupt or criminal is the smelliest of red herrings. The quality of any individual Chicago cop is utterly irrelevant. What's relevant is that if he IS corrupt, the system will do everything it can to protect him, no matter how despicable and cowardly his behavior. And the beating of Karolyna Obrycka is the absolute proof of it.

 

[ilbob]

The RTKBA has nothing to do with cops. It is a mistake to try and make them the front line in defending it. They are not the defenders of any of our rights. It is not anywhere in their job description. It is up to us both individually and collectively to defend all of our rights. That does not mean we should not welcome their help as fellow citizens with a common interest.

I am getting tired of hearing the Nuremberg "just following orders" argument. That was a doctrine made up out of thin air to justify what was little more than a kangaroo court that only had jurisdiction because of which side won the war. It is mostly a "we won so we can make up whatever rules we want" doctrine. The plain fact is that if you do not follow orders, there are consequences. As an employee, you do not get to set the rules that define your conduct while fufilling your job. Your employer does.

Do not make the mistake of thinking all cops are bad, or all are good. Or that they can be neatly put into some easily labeled package. The fact is that cops are human beings, and human beings are not easily classified. There is a very strong possibility that the very same cop that would use questionable or downright illegal tactics, would also stick his neck way out on the line to save your butt some day. It would be nice if one could pigeonhole cops into "good" and "bad", and then do away with the bad ones, but human beings defy being so easily classified.

There are a lot of myths about police, many created by TV, movies, and books. Police work was never like Dragnet or Adam-12. If you think that anyone can deal with the scum of the earth every day for a whole career and not be touched by that contact, you are not dealing with the real world.

As some cops have pointed out, it is unfair to compare the way things (and cops) are in places like Chicago, NY, and N.O., with cops everywhere else. A lot of places do indeed have cops that are mostly decent human beings. I suspect that the majority of the cops even in those kind of places are decent human beings.

My guess is most of the cops that misbehave didn't start out that way. It seems unlikely they would go to the trouble of joining the police force (the numerous gang members on the force in Chicago and DC excepted of course) just so they could violate someone's rights. I suppose it could happen, but it just does not seem like something that happens very often. My guess is at some point they lose touch with their moral and ethical center, and the system offers little in the way of correction and supervision, so they wander off the path.

Cops often like to claim they don't want to work with bad cops. I believe thats probably true. None of us really want to work with someone who makes us look bad either. But, individual employees don't have much say in the supervision and discipline of fellow employees. Police departments are no different than any other employer in that respect. And the fear of being labeled as a management stoolie is not a whole lot different for a cop than a guy working at McDonalds.

 

[ilbob]

The problem in Chicago has LONG since ceased to be one of the acts of individual police officers.

The entire SYSTEM is corrupt. In nearly EVERY recent high profile case of police misconduct or criminal acts on the part of Chicago police officers, BLATANT favoritism, collusion, or turning of the blind eye have been major factors.

The whole government of Chicago is a cesspool. The citizens elected several gang members to the city council. The gangs collect tribute (campaign contributions) for a fair number of city councilmen. The majority of politicians associated with the city of Chicago are just plain crooked. I don't know how that can't help but influence how the police department operates.

 

[Clipper]

You know, I really don't care about how misunderstood and downtrodden by their political masters the cop grinding my face into the pavement is. He took an oath to uphold the law, and when he breaks it, be it by confiscating a legal firearm, tazing deaf guys, shooting great-grandmothers, killing kids pets and burning down their homes or stomping coctail waitresses, they become criminals, and deserve the exact same treatment I would get. That includes a handcuffed ride to jail, booking, arraignment and trial. No own recognisance, no desk duty, no free to run around unsupervised... As soon as a wrong address on a warrant (which in this age of almost unlimited information there is NO repeat NO excuse for) results in an innocent's door being kicked in, makes any person who enters a home invader and should, by rights, be a defensible situation for the homeowner. And the look of the shaved-head, high-speed, low-drag tactical ninja Marine Corps wannabe's don't do a thing to foster the 'helpful, friendly police officer' image we all grew up with in the 50s and 60s that we could all turn to when we were in need. And shows like 'COPs' don't do a thing to restore that image. I'm infuriated by the attitudes most of those guys on that show display, and the violations of not only constitutional rights, but of the basic human dignity of the people they interact with, especially those they end up turning loose because they're not doing anything illegal, but that fact doesn't save them from being lied to, intimidated, and threatened. Again I say, they're their own worst enemies, and nobody is going to fix it but themselves and as long as they're gonna hide behind 'nobody likes a snitch', the trend of distrust and fear will continue.

And here's a news flash for you. Those of us who take our 2A rights seriously enough to come here generally take the rest of them even more seriously. That's why we own guns, to protect us from 'THEM'...And like it or not, more and more often, the police are looking an awful lot like 'THEM' too...

 

[poor_richard]

I am getting tired of hearing the Nuremberg "just following orders" argument. That was a doctrine made up out of thin air to justify what was little more than a kangaroo court that only had jurisdiction because of which side won the war. It is mostly a "we won so we can make up whatever rules we want" doctrine. The plain fact is that if you do not follow orders, there are consequences. As an employee, you do not get to set the rules that define your conduct while fufilling your job. Your employer does.

Wow, just... wow!

 

[Deanimator]

I am getting tired of hearing the Nuremberg "just following orders" argument. That was a doctrine made up out of thin air to justify what was little more than a kangaroo court that only had jurisdiction because of which side won the war. It is mostly a "we won so we can make up whatever rules we want" doctrine. The plain fact is that if you do not follow orders, there are consequences. As an employee, you do not get to set the rules that define your conduct while fufilling your job. Your employer does.

However, the difference in consequences between an SS Mann refusing to fill a synagog with Jews and set it on fire, and a California Highway Patrolman refusing to confiscate the legally owned firearm of an elderly woman in Louisiana are significant.

Of course research has indicated that those Germans who DID refuse to murder Jews rarely if ever faced capital punishment or long prison sentences.

 

[TCB in TN]

I am getting tired of hearing the Nuremberg "just following orders" argument. That was a doctrine made up out of thin air to justify what was little more than a kangaroo court that only had jurisdiction because of which side won the war. It is mostly a "we won so we can make up whatever rules we want" doctrine. The plain fact is that if you do not follow orders, there are consequences. As an employee, you do not get to set the rules that define your conduct while fufilling your job. Your employer does.

I guess keeping a job is more important to some folks than being moral ethical individuals, it matter even more than the consequences to their families, friends, society etc. But hey, they did still have a job!