Alliant Bullseye with 230gr 45 TMJ - Requesting data check

[RavenVT100]

The load data in my Speer manual seems a little high. For a 230gr Speer TMJ it specifies 5.2 grains of Bullseye minimum and max 5.7 grains. Elsewhere on the internet I am finding load data that specifies 5 grains or lower.

Since I've just started out reloading I would like to make sure this minimum load (5.2 grains of Bullseye) is safe. Does it appear to be?

 

[Redhat]

I know what you mean. My Speer manual calls for a starting load of 5.6 gr of W231 with the 230gr TMJ.

Do what I did...call 'em they were very helpful with me!

You might also be able to cross reference on the Alliant web site.

 

[P0832177]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/

 

[Canuck-IL]

For a 230 TMJ, the Lyman 48th ed manual lists 3.8 - 5.3gr BE at an OAL of 1.275. The high end is listed as 867 fps and 17,100 CUP from a 5" universal receiver. Unfortunately, the Alliant listing is for a min OAL of 1.19....! but it gives 5gr, I presume as the max.
/Bryan

 

[RavenVT100]

If I could figure out what FMC stands for...

On the Alliant website it specifies the following for Bullseye powder:

For 230grain FMC: 5.0 grains, 905 FPS
For 230grain JHP: 5.4 grains, 865 FPS

Whereas the Speer manual specifies 779 FPS, for its 5.2 grain minimum for 230 TMJ.

Interesting. Is this data low on Alliant's site because they are using such a small OAL? I can't tell if they mean 1.19 was the cart's OAL or that they are merely recommending that as the minimum. If they were using 1.19 OAL it would explain the higher pressures and lower grain count.

 

[Redhat]

I would advise you to call Speer. Whe I spoke to them they said the 230 TMJ was a little different than other FMJ bullets.

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

I use 5.0 grs bullseye with 230gr bullets. It's their bullet so I guess they know what they are talking about.

 

[RavenVT100]

I am starting to think the issue with this bullet is that it may not be as long as a standard FMJ.

There's even a warning in the book not to use the TMJ loads with 230grain gold dots, and lo and behold, they specify 4.5gr min and 5.0gr max for the gold dot of that weight.

 

[Redhat]

If you read the book I believe you will find it says Hollow Point bullets of same weight are not usually the same length but once again, I would give them a call to put your mind at ease.

 

[Canuck-IL]

What OAL are they using in the Speer manual? THe profile can vary among the FMJ, TMJ, TMC, et al...Rainier's for instance are very long in the nose while Berry's are a blunter, more traditional ball profile.
/Bryan

 

[RavenVT100]

They are specifying COL to be 1.260" for their tests.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Well, at least it's not a ridiculous 1.20 - still seems a heavy charge though ...if you want to measure the length of a Speer TMJ and the bearing surface length, I've got some Rainier's and Berry's around to compare with.

Rainier is .665 in length
Berry's .636
Zero FMJ .648

Bearing surface seems to be about .327 on them all... back when Rainier posted load data, they recommended using lead loads. Berry's says mid-range jacketed loads.

/Bryan

 

[realbuffdriver]

Here's my chrony data:

4.9 gr Bullseye
Rainier 230 gr RN (TMJ)
CCI Large Pistol Primer
54 Deg F
Chronograph 8 ft from muzzle
Mean 787 fps
St Dev 12.9 for 10 shots

I, too, used Speer data at first and was loading 5.2 grains. Never chronographed that load, as I didn't have a chrony then. When I saw other datapoints suggesting 5.2 was too hot, I backed off a bit. Judging from my data, I don't think I had to worry much about the 5.2 grains.

Hope this helps,

RealBuffDriver

 

[RavenVT100]

Thanks. I am going to drop it down to 5 or 5.1 to start.

 

[halvey]

You should start AT LEAST 10% from max when working up loads. I'd start 20% lower.

Ever hear people say "WORKING UP A LOAD"?

 

[RavenVT100]

halvey: In the speer manual they are specifying 5.2 grains as the MINIMUM. The max is 5.7 grains.

 

[halvey]

That's why its ALWAYS recommended to have at least TWO manuals.

 

[RavenVT100]

I agree with you there.

 

[DBR]

In my experience loading copper plated bullets, they require more powder (about 5-10%) than recommended loads for hard cast lead bullets of the same weight for the same velocity.

Plated bullets are soft swaged lead covered with about .003-.007 of copper. Hard cast lead bullets are normally sized to .452 for 45ACP. Plated bullets are sized to .451 - I think to keep the plating from failing as the bullets are swaged in the bore.

The combination of a soft core and under size for the type of bullet results in lower than "normal" pressure for a given charge of powder. So the bullets need a larger charge to get up to speed.

Golden Sabers on the other hand have a very hard jacket and develop pressure at lower charge weights compared to "normal" bullets.

By the way: FMC means "full metal case" and refers to plated bullets. TMJ means "total metal jacket" and also refers to plated bullets.

Speer plated bullets have a much heavier plated jacket but are still softer than conventional "gilding metal" jackets and are somewhere in between for pressure vs charge.

5.6gr of 231 at 1.260 OAL, .470 taper crimp using Ranier 230gr RD nose and Winchester Lg pistol primers chronos at 825fps, 37fps extreme spread and SD=13fps for 10 rds FROM MY 5" 1911 GUNS. To get 231 to burn clean and have minimum velocity spread the load has to be near the high end of allowable pressure for 45ACP.

 

[distra]

I've been using 4.5 gr Bullseye under a 230gr Rainer TMJ. I've ran up to 5.2gr and don't see any issues here. I use the 5.2gr loads for pins. For all around shooting, the 4.5gr is fine very accurate in pistols and easy follow up shoots. 5.7grs may be on the upper edge, but some of my pin shooting buds go up to 6.2 for pin loads. Of course, they have heavy recoil springs and don't shoot these loads all the time.

 

[DBR]

distra:

You might be better off to use a slightly slower powder like 231 if you need more umph than you can get with 5gr of Bullseye under a 230gr bullet.

I use Winchester WAP (Win Action Pistol) now sold as Ramshot Sillouette for hotter 45ACP loads. It is very forgiving, meters very well and can go up to +P pressure without any surprises.

 

[distra]

DBR, thanks. I'll try the Ramshot this spring. Some of the pin shooters use the 231, but I have as of yet. Good tip. I'll try it out as well.

 

[Walkalong]

FMC has been around longer than plated bulets. FMC used to be interchangable with FMJ. That may have changed, I have not noticed.

 

[RavenVT100]

Good info, guys. I appreciate it.

 

[teombe]

Raven:

I think you will find that Speer's data is quite a bit hot, even when using their own bullets with their data. I would suggest using the 1.260" COL (as it is a good one for any RN FMJ/TMJ bullet), and building up some loads at the 5.2gr charge, some at 5.0, and some at 4.8gr.

I think you'll probably like the 5.0 best.